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D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
"Fengel's two older brothers, Folcred and Fastred, were killed in Harondor while fighting for Gondor in T.A.2885, meaning that even by the late Third Age, it had not given up its claims to the region. However, by the time of the War of the Ring all the land south of the river Poros was occupied by the Haradrim."

As you can see, Gondor was still waging war in Harondor at LEAST as recently as 56 years before Bilbo got the ring. Probably more recently than that. The Haradrim held Gondor when the War of the Ring started, but nothing says that they held it even 4 years before that. We do know that it was in dispute a maximum of 56 years prior to Bilbo gaining the ring, which as a far cry from the hundreds of years that you are claiming.

Also, why does it matter? Lotr isn't sacred. Campaigns change canon. I, personally have no interest in even playing a war of the ring campaign. Closest I get is creating a campaign that takes place in the East, involves the Blue Wizards, and rebelling against evil forces there, or being involved with the other front of the war, where the dwarves saved everyone's bacon long enough for the heroes to hero the villain to death.

But id much rather play in the time between hobbit and lotr.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Honestly, it sounds fine and logical to me. Let's face it, the return of the gods and their departure in the first place in Dragonlance were only treated as good and bad things respectively because that's what the authors (devout Mormons) believed they should be seen as - let's be honest, who here thought that the Cataclysm was at all a measured, justified response? Who didn't think the gods got told off properly for expecting mortalkind to immediately cower afterwards, especially since we know they took all the clerics away beforehand and then didn't send them back to tend to the injured or preach about how the Kingpriest, beloved "champion of good", had been misleading them? Mortals are supposed to be the ones at fault? It looks to me more like the gods got sniffy over being told off to me!

Seriously, a lot about Dragonlance grinds my gears, but the presentation of the gods as somehow actually morally perfect and superior, despite acting like classic pagan style gods (read: hubristic, arrogant, and prone to bringing their troubles upon themselves), is one of the biggest flaws.

Come to think of it, it's been too long since I read the first Chronicles book, but I'm pretty sure there's a part where someone - Tanis, I believe - actually does express doubt about whether or not they should want the gods to come back, even if they are the only source of healing magic in the setting.
...
Except "I don't think god/s exist" is the very definition of an atheist. Actively scorning or denying the existence of gods is maltheism, which nobody seems to be able to use straight - the Athar are classic D&D maltheists, and really in any of the established D&D settings outside of Eberron, maltheism would replace "atheism" entirely, since the gods are demonstrably real. You can argue about whether or not they are real gods, or if they deserve worship, but arguing that they don't exist is like arguing that fire won't burn you or water won't drown you.

Just popping in to clarify this character point: for my gnome wild mage, "maltheism" is a more apt description of his beliefs. His background was as a Hermit, and his Discovery is that he figured out what caused the cataclysm: the gods slaughtering millions of innocent people to preserve "The Balance." This is what he fears will happen with the gods "come back": that inevitably, they will think something is out of whack again at some point, and fix it by murdering millions of innocent people once again. His sincere belief is that if mortal free will ends up upsetting "the balance", and this destroys the world, that this is a much better fate than a never-ending cycle of diefic hyper-violence, because it was freely chosen by the mortals. The gods can keep their meddling paws out of it (hell, the Balance was created by the gods in the first place, so maybe they can take that, too). The last few hundred years have proven that people can get along just fine without them, and it seems like one of them (Takhisis) coming back was the trigger for all this, so they can just grab her and go away again. If free will is to have any meaning, mortals must be free to exercise it without the gods correcting them when they do free will wrong.

This is an entirely reasonable position according to the lore I'm familiar with, and also one that has a unique resonance in Dragonlance, since DL has the rather unique distant history of a deific Cataclysm (FR has holy wars, but nothing like The Balance; Eberron's tragedy was mortal-made, as was Dark Sun's, though no one remembers the latter).

That this character is somehow "illegitimate" to my fellow-players is a problem. I care about setting canon, because I want to create characters whose stories are unique to the settings they're in, characters tethered deeply and inextricably with their settings, whose motives and goals make sense using the setting's assumptions. That's fun for me! One of the things I like about of D&D as a hobby is the performance of a character, which means being clear about what characters work within the established world. So when someone else points to some different canon as some reason that my performance isn't authentic, that sucks the fun out of it. So, I'd like to minimize the possibility for that to happen - and every time you change a bit of lore, it increases the chance that this will happen. (It's effectively the cardinal sin of improv - it negates. It says "no.")

This doesn't mean I want Canon A or Canon B. I don't give two flying gerbils what Weiss and Hickman make in their world - that's up to them. But if I don't know what the expectations are, I can't be reasonably expected to meet them!

If gnomes couldn't be wild mages and every character had to want the gods to come back and the DL books basically just came out and said that, that'd be fine, too. But that's not what the sources I read said. I've no investment in any particular lore, I don't care what the lore is, but whatever it is, I want to use it, and to share that experience with others at the table. Yeah, it'll never be absolutely perfect - there's house alterations, there's necessary updates, that's fine, I'm not advocating for some unchanging ideal. I do want to note the real cost of that change, though, and to note that it's significant. So if you think you have a better idea for what tieflings or gnolls are, you better understand what they are already exceptionally well, and you better be prepared to cause some perhaps-minor / perhaps-significant conflicts at some tables because of your change. You are creating a more significant barrier to understanding your weird game about imaginary elves, and a more significant barrier to appreciating and using world-lore in play. That doesn't mean don't do it. It means know what you're getting into when you do it.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Really? OA is only OA if you use the OA setting?

OA is only the OA setting if you use the OA setting, yes. You can use it to make a custom asian setting, though.

Which one would that be? Would that be the original OA setting in the 1e Oriental Adventures? Would that be 2e's Kara Tur, which was the Oriental Adventures Setting for 2e. Would that be Rokugan, which is the OA setting for 3e?

It would be all of them.

The 1e OA setting is required to run the OA setting. 2e OA for 2e and so on. You can take the mechanics from all of them and create a unique home brew asian setting with elements from the OA settings, but it won't be OA of any edition.

Which does tie in rather nicely to how canon is used in RPG's. The canon for D&D is whatever you want it to be whenever you want it to be that thing. Changing canon is part and parcel to the setting.

Sure, changing canon is part of the setting, like how I have King Azoun alive in my FR game. However, I can't just move purple dragon knights to a setting of my invention and expect it to be FR. If you change canon too much, you lose the setting.

But, I'm STILL waiting to hear how my vulcan jedi with a TARDIS is a canon Star Wars character.

Keep waiting. I'm not going to answer a question that has nothing to do with what I have been arguing.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Also, why does it matter? Lotr isn't sacred. Campaigns change canon. I, personally have no interest in even playing a war of the ring campaign. Closest I get is creating a campaign that takes place in the East, involves the Blue Wizards, and rebelling against evil forces there, or being involved with the other front of the war, where the dwarves saved everyone's bacon long enough for the heroes to hero the villain to death.

But id much rather play in the time between hobbit and lotr.
Yeah. I agree that campaigns change canon. I'm just pointing out that Hriston and Pemerton are wrong about a rebel against Gondor not fitting the setting.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Gondor is a bastion of virtue. But it is not pure. That's why I mentioned the possibility of redeeming it.

The War of the Ring isn't about redemption. It's about a struggle against overwhelming odds.

I don't think that you can separate the history, geography, even demography of Middle Earth from its moral/spiritual meaning and say that you've remained true to the setting. Because the setting is defined first and foremost by those moral/spiritual meanings. Minas Tirith is not a city that happens to be a bastion of virtue. Rather, it is an outpost of Westernesse - a moral statement and a moral reality - that happens to take the form of a city.

The Numenoreans (Numenor being Westernesse) fell into evil and worshiped Sauron, except for a few of the faithful. It's hard to argue that Westernesse = virtue. Minis Tirith is great not because of virtue, but rather because the men of Westernesse were mighty and advanced. They built strong, beautiful structures and cities.

Just looking at OA: when the book was published there was a verbal description of Kara-Tur in the back of the book, plus a whole lot of information about family structures, cosmology, etc; but no maps or history.

People who ran games using that material were running OA games using the OA setting. The fact that they happened to have different maps is not that big a deal. The maps aren't what define a game as OA - the fact that (eg) dragons are officials in the Ministry of Thunder (or are river and ocean spirits, etc) is what makes it an OA game.

I had maps of Kara Tur. Where did those come from I wonder? Not being a smartass. I don't have them any longer and really wonder where they came from :)

That's not making me change my view that it does not give a ready supply of what I called "trope implementations" in the way that the settings I favour do.
I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. I was just letting you know what the setting is about. It's a very generic adventure setting, much like Greyhawk. Not as interesting as say, Darksun or Al Qadim.
 

Hussar

Legend
[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] - see I disagree. It only causes conflicts at tables which insist that their favourite canon is the one true canon.

For those of us who can take or leave canon, we shrug and use whatever we like.

So long as no one starts telling people that their idea is wrong simply because it's different from what came before then everyone is groovy.

But this discussion has highlighted things quite well. You based your understanding of the setting on stuff that was written considerably later on. Fine and dandy. But you can't then tell me about the "cost" of change when your excellent character is the result of that change.

Iow if it gives such interesting results then changing canon can't be bad in and of itself. I don't need to know how gnomes we're presented in intricate detail to give a new version. Same as your character lacks intimate knowledge of the earlier canon of the setting.
 

pemerton

Legend
The War of the Ring isn't about redemption. It's about a struggle against overwhelming odds.
Tolkien is obsessed by The Fall - so obsessed that he has it recur many, many times across his works (Feanor; the elves of Ost-in-Edhel; the dwarves, up until the retaking of the Lonely Mountain; the people of Numenor; the people of Gondor, who begin as "the faithful" but lose their virtue).

In LotR, in order to win the struggle against Sauron the free peoples have to redeem themselves. Boromir (at Parth Galen); Theoden (at Helm's Deep, in negotiation with Saruman, and ultimately at the Pelennor Field); Gondor itself - through Faramir, and then through Aragorn's return - which also redeems Isildur's legacy.

The victory over Sauron is a moral victory; providence brings it about (by delivering the ring to Bilbo, and thence to Frodo; by ensuring that Gandalf is there to act as a guide, including by returning him to Middle Earth after his struggle with the Balrog; by ensuring that Aragorn acquires the Palantir, and hence can use it to lead Sauron into a hasty stroke, and then is in a position to distract Sauron's attention while Frodo takes the ring to Mount Doom; through Gollum's intervention at the final moment, as foretold by Gandalf). But providence is only on the side of those who act rightly.

And once providence was on the side of the free people, the odds weren't overwhelming at all! (Hence why courage is such an important virtue in the story - if those who are truly right have the courage to act, then providence will work in their favour. The converse of this sort of hopeful courage is despair, which is what Theoden overcomes but Denethor succumbs to.)

The Numenoreans (Numenor being Westernesse) fell into evil and worshiped Sauron, except for a few of the faithful. It's hard to argue that Westernesse = virtue. Minis Tirith is great not because of virtue, but rather because the men of Westernesse were mighty and advanced. They built strong, beautiful structures and cities.
I think this is reading what is a deeply moral/theological work in the spirit of an engineering textbook, or an academic history.

It's like arguing that success in the Grail Quest depends upon having really well-calibrated Grail-detectors! I mean, that would be one way to run a King Arthur game, I guess, but I don't feel that it would really be true to the source material.

I had maps of Kara Tur. Where did those come from I wonder?
The boxed set. Which (contra [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]) is not 2nd ed; though some of the OA modules were (I think OA4 is still 1st ed AD&D, but the later ones - as best I recall beginning with OA5 (the last one was OA7) - are badged as 2nd ed).

It's a very generic adventure setting, much like Greyhawk.
I think GH is actually fairly specific, at least by default. It's S&S - though, as From the Ashes shows, it can be drifted to epic fantasy by making Iuz more like Sauron and less like Thugra Khotan or Xaltotun.
 

pemerton

Legend
my gnome wild mage, "maltheism" is a more apt description of his beliefs. His background was as a Hermit, and his Discovery is that he figured out what caused the cataclysm: the gods slaughtering millions of innocent people to preserve "The Balance." This is what he fears will happen with the gods "come back": that inevitably, they will think something is out of whack again at some point, and fix it by murdering millions of innocent people once again. His sincere belief is that if mortal free will ends up upsetting "the balance", and this destroys the world, that this is a much better fate than a never-ending cycle of diefic hyper-violence, because it was freely chosen by the mortals. The gods can keep their meddling paws out of it (hell, the Balance was created by the gods in the first place, so maybe they can take that, too). The last few hundred years have proven that people can get along just fine without them, and it seems like one of them (Takhisis) coming back was the trigger for all this, so they can just grab her and go away again. If free will is to have any meaning, mortals must be free to exercise it without the gods correcting them when they do free will wrong.

This is an entirely reasonable position according to the lore I'm familiar with, and also one that has a unique resonance in Dragonlance, since DL has the rather unique distant history of a deific Cataclysm
As I've posted, if this character "wins" rather than relents and acknowledges the gods, then the basic idea of Dragonlance has been overthrown. I think that could be a pretty interesting game, but I wouldn't regard it as canonical DL! And that has nothing to do with the build elements you're using!

I mean, you could build a human, champion fighter with the Hermit background - say, a fallen Knight of Solamnia - and have the same basic backstory. This wouldn't raise the "are there gnome wild mages in DL?" question, but the issue of whether the character fits canon would still arise.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
As I've posted, if this character "wins" rather than relents and acknowledges the gods, then the basic idea of Dragonlance has been overthrown. I think that could be a pretty interesting game, but I wouldn't regard it as canonical DL! And that has nothing to do with the build elements you're using!

Dragonlance without Gods would not be canonical?

DL Age of Mortals.jpg

Nope, no way that would happen. o_O
 

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