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D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

Corwin

Explorer
Oh. You were being serious. Sorry, my bad. Here's the extent of your previous post that needs to be highlighted to explain where you fall short:
I interpret the RAW...
Since there are a ton of players, playing 5e, who do not see it your way, I guess yours isn't the only interpretation of RAW. And that's key.

BTW, have you taken all this to any of the devs? I'd love to see *their* feedback on your theory.
 

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fjw70

Adventurer
Now, THERE'S an argument for getting me to change my ruling so I can increase the level of cruelty in my games.

Just give monsters super stealth which gives them advantage on the first attack made when they start the round in hiding. PCs don't have to have all the toys the monsters do. :)
 


Corwin

Explorer
Just give monsters super stealth which gives them advantage on the first attack made when they start the round in hiding. PCs don't have to have all the toys the monsters do. :)
You are a terrible person! Shame on you for giving iserith such wonderfully nasty ideas!
 

Posted without comment to either combatant-

From Nov. 2015 Sage advice-
Do the lightfoot halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed? The lightfoot halfling and wood elf traits—Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when observers are nearby. Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf! Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations unavailable to most other creatures, but neither subrace’s hiding attempt is assured of success; a Dexterity (Stealth) check is required as normal, and an observant foe might later spot a hidden halfling or elf: “I see you behind that guard, you tricksy halfling!”

Mike Mearls Tweet, Sept. 2014-
Dorian Hart @DorianHart

@mikemearls Rogue Hides behind tree. Ogre can't see him. Leans out, shoots ogre, returns. Advantage on attack? Sneak attack? Same next turn?



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(((Mike Mearls))) @mikemearls

@DorianHart I would say advantage on attack, disadvantage on check to hide again





Use as y'all will.

Neither supports nor weakens what I'm saying. I agree with everything posted.

Since there are a ton of players, playing 5e, who do not see it your way, I guess yours isn't the only interpretation of RAW. And that's key.

Im not saying my interpretation is the only interpretation. In fact I said the exact opposite. I said there are two interpretations. Explicitly.

If you read my posts instead of being snide, you'd probably know this. Or maybe you are reading them, but just don't understand them. I cant help you in the latter case.

For the bloody upteenth time, there are two main interpretations of the RAW. (The RAW being essentially: You cant hide when someone is watching you). The first (the gamist interpretation) of this passage states you can thus attempt the Hide action by simply breaking LOS on your turn (enter full cover). The second (the plain English language interpretation) states the act of moving into hiding while under observation is enough to foil the attempt.

Whichever interpretation you prefer is irrelevant to me. The rules expressly let you rule hiding however you damn well want, and states (as RAW) 'the DM determines when you can or cant hide'. I prefer the latter (plain english) interpretation as it gives plain english meaning to the word 'hiding' and 'hidden'.

The gamist interpretation results in a number of absurd situations (jack in the box rogue, removal of object permanence) and fails to account for what exactly a person does represented by 'the hide action' once behind that pillar I saw them jump behind that suddenly makes me think they are no longer there, as opposed to anyone else I observe leaping behind a pillar breaking LOS who doesn't take the hide action.

You want to stick with your interpretation, fine bro. The OP on the other hand is looking for a method to kerb a jack in the box rogue who seems capable of removing object permanence in his targets (i.e. he appears to have been using the gamist interpretation).

My suggestion to him is to use a plain english interpretation of the RAW instead. Its just as RAW as the gamist one, and doesnt lead to situations of absurdity with every stand up fight resulting in a game of (unrealistic) hide and seek from someone dissapearing behind a pillar and suddenly no-one knows where he is anymore over and over again.
 

seebs

Adventurer
I would tend to say that, taken at face value, if at a given instant you are not observed, and you have an action available, you can then take a Hide action. This doesn't mean that people suddenly forget that you exist. And if they go to where you are, and you're not concealed from them, of course they can see you.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Im not saying my interpretation is the only interpretation. In fact I said the exact opposite. I said there are two interpretations. Explicitly.

If you read my posts instead of being snide, you'd probably know this. Or maybe you are reading them, but just don't understand them. I cant help you in the latter case.
Then whey did you disagree with me in the first place? Seems this is all a weird stance to take if you don't disagree with me.
 

I would tend to say that, taken at face value, if at a given instant you are not observed, and you have an action available, you can then take a Hide action. This doesn't mean that people suddenly forget that you exist. And if they go to where you are, and you're not concealed from them, of course they can see you.

What exactly is the Rogue doing behind that pillar he 'takes the hide action' behind? How is it different for his buddy who doesn't take the hide action behind the pillar (assuming they both have total cover)?

Why is one 'hidden', but the other one is not?

I take hidden to mean.. well hidden. As in 'Don't know where you are with sufficient precision and certainty, and may even be unaware of your presence at all'. As in 'Cant be found (generally) without the Search action.'

If I know where you are hiding (by virtue of watching you go there) you are not hidden (even though you may have total cover relative to me), nor can you generally do anything magical while in cover to suddenly make you hidden (unless you are in fact capable of doing something magical, like misty stepping from behind total cover to another location and then hiding there, or using a concealed trap door back there and doubling back somewhere I don't expect).

The language in the rules (for mine) is simply stating the obvious. Not some formulaic rules jargon.

If you're in a room and its empty, you can crawl in or under something and attempt to hide from anyone who walks in there. If the room is occupied and you're being watched, you are not hidden from that person (although you are from the new guy that enters the room) regardless of what you roll (the roll is irrelevant for guy 1 but not irrelevant relative to the new guy).

Seriously. Think about it. Apply common sense here.

As a rule of thumb, if the Search action is not required to find you because the enemy knows where you are, you are not hidden.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
Hiding has nothing to do with object permanency. Let's look at an example.

two thigs (A and B) are following C. They don't want to engage him so they are keeping their distance. C moves behind a tree and is now out of their sight. A few things can happen.

1) C just stands there.
2) C attempts to hide and fails his check.
3) C attempts to hide and succeeds on his check.
4) C teleports away.

From A and B's poimt of view they cannot tell the difference between 3 and 4. In 1 and 2 they know C is there because they can hear him/see his shadow/etc. for both 3 and 4 they cannot tell if he is there or not and must try to move around the tree to see for sure.
 

Hiding has nothing to do with object permanency. Let's look at an example.

two thigs (A and B) are following C. They don't want to engage him so they are keeping their distance. C moves behind a tree and is now out of their sight. A few things can happen.

1) C just stands there.
2) C attempts to hide and fails his check.
3) C attempts to hide and succeeds on his check.
4) C teleports away.

From A and B's poimt of view they cannot tell the difference between 3 and 4. In 1 and 2 they know C is there because they can hear him/see his shadow/etc. for both 3 and 4 they cannot tell if he is there or not and must try to move around the tree to see for sure.

If C teleports away (uses misty step after obtaining full cover to teleport to a different tree 30' away) then he can hide after he does so. In that circumstance, the pursuing creature did not see him go into hiding, and does not know where he is.

Otherwise the following creature saw exactly where he went, and is objectively correct in that knowledge. C is not hidden from his pursuer, and no amount of dancing up and down using 'the Hide action' behind that tree is going to save his ass when the pursuer rounds that tree and stabs him in the face.

He aint hidden. Ill let him roll and all, but I'll ignore the result. He can die under that tree for all I care.

His friend who teleported away to a different tree can also roll. If he beats the passive perception of the pursuing creatures, he is now hidden (if he flubs it they notice him peeking out from the tree he teleported to). Assuming he makes the check, the pursuing creatures are going to have to stop and use the Search action to find him or keep on running past his hiding location.

Assuming during the chase, C instead rounded a bend breaking any observation from from his pursuers, and then hid behind a tree while they were not watching him do so. In this case his pursuers do not know where he is, and are gonna run straight past him unless they decide to stop and search the tree, or he flubs his Stealth check and they notice him (leaving his sword scabbard sticking out the side of the tree as he tries to hide).

See the difference yet? Hidden means something.
 
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