D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

Hol' up. Are you saying an invisible creature, even without a successful stealth check, does not get advantage while attacking a visible target?

He does indeed. But not due to being hidden. He gets advantage due to the invisible condition (see the back of the PHB for conditions). While he is not hidden from you, you cant see where his attacks are coming from and cant parry/ dodge them effectively.

If a wizard casts invisibility, he cant hide in the same turn and is not automatically hidden (despite being invisible). He can try the following turn to Hide (using his action) but until he successfully does so, he can be attacked normally (at disadvantage, while also immune to AoO and many spells which require a target 'you can see').
 

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He does indeed. But not due to being hidden. He gets advantage due to the invisible condition (see the back of the PHB for conditions). While he is not hidden from you, you cant see where his attacks are coming from and cant parry/ dodge them effectively.

If a wizard casts invisibility, he cant hide in the same turn and is not automatically hidden (despite being invisible). He can try the following turn to Hide (using his action) but until he successfully does so, he can be attacked normally (at disadvantage, while also immune to AoO and many spells which require a target 'you can see').
So the Rogue's class feature to Hide as a bonus action is pretty useless in your game?
 

Okay, whew. You had me worried for a sec, there.

They're related but separate.

The game more or less assumes that even invisible you are not 'hidden' (there are other signs of your passage that give your general location away). However the invisible condition states that 'for the purpose of hiding, you are considered to be in heavy obscurement'.

In other words you can take the hide action at will whenever you have an action spare (you cant be observed going into hiding 'clearly enough' when invisible).

If successful in the Hide action while invisible your opponent either needs to find you (via the Search action) or take a lucky guess at your location (and hit you).

I'm always surprised by the number of players that still think invisible = imperceptible. They gripe fairly heavily when I call for a stealth check via the Hide action (usually not the best bonus for most wizards), usually making them wait at least a round before attempting it (the cast a spell action takes their action on the turn they become invisible).

OTOH, a rogue with greater invisibility is a nightmare. Attack + cunning action hide (check result 20+) every single round. Waste your turn using the Search action to find him, and then he stabs you again, and cunning action hides again.
 

So the Rogue's class feature to Hide as a bonus action is pretty useless in your game?

What?

No its fantastic. It just requires a bit of planning or set up.

Remember, once a PC is hidden, my monsters dont know where they are. Barring the search action or a very lucky guess (lobbing a fireball down the hallway) you're golden once hidden.

Rogues can pull off all kinds of shennanigans. In large areas of darkness they can hide every single round. Theyre the only class that is capable of [attack] and [hide from distracted monster] in the same round (barring the fighter via action surge, and the Ranger via vanish, or a sorcerer casting a quickened spell and hiding and so forth).
 

ThePolarBear

First Post
Just as an aside - and please don't take this as me being nasty - but game designers don't always make the best DMs. I wouldn't consider any of the game designer's calls on Twitter to be gospel if I were you.

Do not worry, i only look up to the official Sage Advice compendium for inspiration. I do not take RAW or anything as gospel. Rule 0 is have fun, Rule 1 is DM is the Final Judge.
And there are also clarifications in the official Sage Advice that are clearly sloppy and take a 180 turn on rules that are clearly written. Humans are fallible sadly. Or luckily?

Oh for the love of God.

Its a tree. It could be a Californian oak tree big enough to hide a T-Rex behind for all I know. The assumption is the 'tree' is big enough to hide behind.



Depends on if the Ogre is now observing him 'closely enough' or not.

If Yes: No hiding allowed.
If No: Hiding is OK
If maybe, but not clearly: Probably, but with disadvantage.

Whats the Ogre doing? Is he watching the Rogue 'closely enough'? Or did he ignore the Rogue and look away for a few seconds thinking the shot came from elsewhere?

The game assumes the Ogre is aware of the rogue as the attack is resolved, and generally remains alert to the rogue (watching him), but he may not be. Depends on the Ogre, and the situation.

Assuming no distractions from the Ogre, and only a handful of trees about, then I would rule no 're-hiding'. If the rogue was shooting in a forest from 150' away then I would rule re-hiding is OK.

I like how you are trying to justify your interpretation when the easy and most correct way out would have been "Because that's how i would rule as a DM, and that's how he does. They do not need to align".

The first part about hiding is that the DM dictates when you can hide. THIS IS CRUCIAL. And that's why you can keep saying how someone can go through a door and still be considered seen. Not because you are universally right. But because your interpretation is as valid as Mearls. Yet "let's try and rationalize everything even if Mearls has this thing where the basis is in complete opposition from mine".

I can't believe I'm getting involved in this mess, but here goes:

(sorry for the snip)


And that's it. I do not agree that the hiding section is poorly written - just awfully sparse. It gives a basic set of tools and establishes the "general" on which the DM HAS TO JUDGE, case by case. And we can argue how much we want that "see" actually means "see" or not. I prefer having my bases large and permitting than strict and unforgiving. I prefer to say "Yeah you can hide there, they cannot see you. They can see everywhere else tho. And it's not like they'll forget about you... do you really want to spend your action for that?" and let the player make the choice.

Also being strict ends up in situations like this...

He does indeed. But not due to being hidden. He gets advantage due to the invisible condition (see the back of the PHB for conditions). While he is not hidden from you, you cant see where his attacks are coming from and cant parry/ dodge them effectively.

If a wizard casts invisibility, he cant hide in the same turn and is not automatically hidden (despite being invisible). He can try the following turn to Hide (using his action) but until he successfully does so, he can be attacked normally (at disadvantage, while also immune to AoO and many spells which require a target 'you can see').

When actually what he meant to say is that "a Wizard that has no level in sorcerer or fighter or rogue or that has no other way to Hide as anything but an action and another 10 thousands other possible exceptions like being in a zone of silence in a completely empty space sinc ethe reason he can't hide is not because he can't but because he can't use another action, no matter what i think about the previous explanation about known position and whatnot."

A better approach to rulings is to be... i guess positive is the right word? You say "a Wizard that has just cast invisibility can hide as long as he can take the Hide action in some way or there's a situation that can make me think it's a good idea to allow it" as a DM and it's IMMEDIATELY clear to the player if there's something he can do about it. No need to create a thousand of exceptions and sub rules. The DM adjudicates on the spot.

For the hiding pillar thing: "Yes, you can hide there. Your pursuers are not stupid tho and you would have no way to flee from there if not in some place they can see. In one round they'll be there and they'll see you. And no, going in hiding and then attacking is not going to give you jack sheep. They expect to be fired upon."
All round better, does not cut options for your player if he wants to be dumb or if he has a brilliant idea that you have not thought about.
Overall, imho, simpler and more effective than a long list of no's and rules.

By the way, i prefer large and permissive. That's not really how i roll for everything tho. Ready actions is one of those places where i'm clear cut tyrannical.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
If C teleports away (uses misty step after obtaining full cover to teleport to a different tree 30' away) then he can hide after he does so. In that circumstance, the pursuing creature did not see him go into hiding, and does not know where he is.

Otherwise the following creature saw exactly where he went, and is objectively correct in that knowledge. C is not hidden from his pursuer, and no amount of dancing up and down using 'the Hide action' behind that tree is going to save his ass when the pursuer rounds that tree and stabs him in the face.

He aint hidden. Ill let him roll and all, but I'll ignore the result. He can die under that tree for all I care.
L
His friend who teleported away to a different tree can also roll. If he beats the passive perception of the pursuing creatures, he is now hidden (if he flubs it they notice him peeking out from the tree he teleported to). Assuming he makes the check, the pursuing creatures are going to have to stop and use the Search action to find him or keep on running past his hiding location.

Assuming during the chase, C instead rounded a bend breaking any observation from from his pursuers, and then hid behind a tree while they were not watching him do so. In this case his pursuers do not know where he is, and are gonna run straight past him unless they decide to stop and search the tree, or he flubs his Stealth check and they notice him (leaving his sword scabbard sticking out the side of the tree as he tries to hide).

See the difference yet? Hidden means something.

You missed the point. A and B don't want to confront C. If he is not hidden behind the tree then they know he is still there and can just wait for him to move again. If he is hidden then they don't know if he is there or teleported away or whatever. They have to decide if they need to wait him out or if they want to sneak a peek around the tree to see if he is still there and risk a confrontation. Very different situations.

You are correct that hidden means something. It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
 


If A is not hidden behind the tree then they know he is still there and can just wait for him to move again. If A is hidden then they don't know if he is there or teleported away or whatever

Whats the difference?

What is A doing behind the tree and out of sight of his pursuers with 'the Hide action' that makes his location suddenly so imprecise?

You agree that if the doesnt 'take the Hide action' behind the tree, then they know he is there and can walk up to him and attack him, wait for him to move again or whatver.

Yet if he 'takes the Hide action' behind the tree, you assert suddenly his pursuers dont know he is bhind the tree anymore.

What exactly is he doing back there, that a person who hasnt taken the hide action behind a tree does? How (and in what manner) is this 'Hide action' he does behind the tree remove object permanence from his pursuers?

It makes no sense.

You are correct that hidden means something. It just doesn't mean what you think it means

No, it doesnt mean what you think it means. Hidden means hidden. The creature you are hidden relative to doesnt know your location with sufficient precision and may not even be aware of your presence at all.

What is the guy behind the tree doing to create this state of mind in the person who saw him go behind the solitary tree? And why does he need to break LOS to do it?

When actually what he meant to say is that "a Wizard that has no level in sorcerer or fighter or rogue or that has no other way to Hide as anything but an action and another 10 thousands other possible exceptions like being in a zone of silence in a completely empty space sinc ethe reason he can't hide is not because he can't but because he can't use another action, no matter what i think about the previous explanation about known position and whatnot."

No, thats not what I meant at all. If thats what I meant, thats what I would have said.

For the hiding pillar thing: "Yes, you can hide there. Your pursuers are not stupid tho and you would have no way to flee from there if not in some place they can see. In one round they'll be there and they'll see you. And no, going in hiding and then attacking is not going to give you jack sheep. They expect to be fired upon."

For mine, the correct response is:

'Remember, you can only use the Hide action if your enemies did not see you go into your hiding spot and thus dont know where you are. If you want, you can duck behind the pillar, quiet yourself, and still your breathing in the hope that your pursuers did not see you duck behind the pillar [and use your action and roll stealth], but if your pursuers saw you go behind the pillar to hide, you wont be hidden, your enemies wont need to use the Search action to find you, and you dont get advantage on an attack if you lean out and shoot them regardless of what you roll. You will however have total cover unless they walk around it on their turns.'

''Its up to you.'








 

seebs

Adventurer
What exactly is the Rogue doing behind that pillar he 'takes the hide action' behind? How is it different for his buddy who doesn't take the hide action behind the pillar (assuming they both have total cover)?

I don't know. I'm not a rogue.

Possibly looking for something in the area behind the pillar he can lean up against to make himself less obvious. Maybe grabbing a handful of dust from the floor and smearing it on his clothes so he blends in better. I don't know the mechanics, and I don't need to.

Why is one 'hidden', but the other one is not?

Because one used an action to become hidden.

As a rule of thumb, if the Search action is not required to find you because the enemy knows where you are, you are not hidden.

The point is, the enemy may not actually know where you are anymore. They know you went behind the thing. They don't know where behind it you are. They might not even be 100% sure you're still behind it; maybe you did something to make them look the other way for a fraction of a second and rolled away. Who knows? They couldn't see you for a minute, and you hid. Now they don't know where you are.
 

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