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D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
See, given my interpretation, I don't have to give a thought to object permanency issues. If you're seen, you're not hidden. So, fine, you can be hidden behind that pillar for all the good it does you since, once you pop out, you're not hidden anymore. If you want advantage on your attack rolls due to hidden, find some heavy obscurement.
 

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ThePolarBear

First Post
@Flamestrike considering that for you hiding behind a pillar, even if total cover, is impossible and you agree with what Mearls posted about ogres and trees, there's a BIG problem that you have to address: You are both stating that you can hide behind a 3/4 cover and that you can't hide behind total cover given the same circumstances. Care to explain? Your position is getting confusing.

Edit: Well, more confusing. But i still have had no time to actually inster into the conversation in a meaningful manner. Too slow to type :p
 

@Flamestrike considering that for you hiding behind a pillar, even if total cover, is impossible

No I'm not. I'm saying its impossible under direct observation barring some other factor (teleporting away elsewhere while behind it for example).

and you agree with what Mearls posted about ogres and trees,

Yep.

there's a BIG problem that you have to address: You are both stating that you can hide behind a 3/4 cover and that you can't hide behind total cover given the same circumstances. Care to explain? Your position is getting confusing.

What? My assumption was the tree provides total cover (or at least cover enough to hide behind).

The assumption in the Ogre/ Tree scenario is that the tree is big enough to actually hide behind (and in fact the Rogue was hiding behind it before he took his shot from hiding revealing himself).

Please dont go back to the 'popping out' fake parsing of text that doesnt exist anywhere in RAW. The specific rule re: attacking from hiding means that if you're hidden behind a tree (and remember, by RAW the question isnt if you can be seen when you're hiding, the question is can you be seen clearly) with your crossbow pointed at the Ogre (hes fighting your buddy, or not otherwise paying much attention to you) you are not revealed until after you make your attack (hit or miss).

After that first shot (at advantage due to you being hidden) you get the Ogres attention. If hes distracted and unable to watch you closely from that point onwards, you can probably attempt to hide again (at disadvantage). In this case he aint watching you closely enough to see where you went.

If its just the two of you though, popping back behind the tree and attempting to hide again while the Ogre is watching you, is pretty much impossible.
 

ThePolarBear

First Post
No I'm not. I'm saying its impossible under direct observation barring some other factor (teleporting away elsewhere while behind it for example).



Yep.



What? My assumption was the tree provides total cover (or at least cover enough to hide behind).

The assumption in the Ogre/ Tree scenario is that the tree is big enough to actually hide behind (and in fact the Rogue was hiding behind it before he took his shot from hiding revealing himself).

Please dont go back to the 'popping out' fake parsing of text that doesnt exist anywhere in RAW. The specific rule re: attacking from hiding means that if you're hidden behind a tree (and remember, by RAW the question isnt if you can be seen when you're hiding, the question is can you be seen clearly) with your crossbow pointed at the Ogre (hes fighting your buddy, or not otherwise paying much attention to you) you are not revealed until after you make your attack (hit or miss).

After that first shot (at advantage due to you being hidden) you get the Ogres attention. If hes distracted and unable to watch you closely from that point onwards, you can probably attempt to hide again (at disadvantage). In this case he aint watching you closely enough to see where you went.

If its just the two of you though, popping back behind the tree and attempting to hide again while the Ogre is watching you, is pretty much impossible.

Trees usually provide 3/4 cover. Cover section PHB. The rogue hides there, all good and dandy, then takes the shot. The shot reveals the rogue. The rogue can hide again in the same place with disadvantage. Rogue is revealed. Can hide. 3/4 cover. Explain how this makes sense if you can't hide while under observation. Because it does not, since the situation is the same. Both are being observed.

Edit: There's no other distraction in the scenario. Do not put things that are not there.
 


iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Just as an aside - and please don't take this as me being nasty - but game designers don't always make the best DMs. I wouldn't consider any of the game designer's calls on Twitter to be gospel if I were you.
 

Trees usually provide 3/4 cover. Cover section PHB.

Oh for the love of God.

Its a tree. It could be a Californian oak tree big enough to hide a T-Rex behind for all I know. The assumption is the 'tree' is big enough to hide behind.

The rogue hides there, all good and dandy, then takes the shot. The shot reveals the rogue. The rogue can hide again in the same place with disadvantage. Rogue is revealed. Can hide. 3/4 cover. Explain how this makes sense if you can't hide while under observation.

Depends on if the Ogre is now observing him 'closely enough' or not.

If Yes: No hiding allowed.
If No: Hiding is OK
If maybe, but not clearly: Probably, but with disadvantage.

Whats the Ogre doing? Is he watching the Rogue 'closely enough'? Or did he ignore the Rogue and look away for a few seconds thinking the shot came from elsewhere?

The game assumes the Ogre is aware of the rogue as the attack is resolved, and generally remains alert to the rogue (watching him), but he may not be. Depends on the Ogre, and the situation.

Assuming no distractions from the Ogre, and only a handful of trees about, then I would rule no 're-hiding'. If the rogue was shooting in a forest from 150' away then I would rule re-hiding is OK.
 


Corwin

Explorer
For the record, being invisible isnt 'automatically hidden' either. You still have to take the Hide action even while invisible (otherwise your enemies can attack you at disadvantage until you do so).
Hol' up. Are you saying an invisible creature, even without a successful stealth check, does not get advantage while attacking a visible target?
 

Rod Staffwand

aka Ermlaspur Flormbator
I can't believe I'm getting involved in this mess, but here goes:

The big hang-up is RAW for when hiding ends. As per the rules (Hiding Sidebar, p177): "When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."

Does "popping out" (defined as quickly leaving cover you're hiding behind to make a missile attack) constitute a stop in hiding? The rules don't say, but they do prohibit approaching and making a melee attack while hidden, though the DM may rule otherwise based on circumstances. Obviously, you can apply this to ranged attacks as well, but that's not a huge help.

A stealth roll is contested by a Perception check (if active searching is underway) or Passive Perception (if not). Should the hidden attacker make a roll against the Passive Perception of the target, provided the target is engaged in combat and not actively searching? Possibly. I would say it would be a requirement to maintain being hidden (as per the Hiding sidebar), but it still doesn't address when "you stop hiding".

From a technical standpoint, you gain advantage on an attack if your opponent can't see you (no matter if you're hidden or not). If you "pop out" from hiding to make a missile attack, you're theoretically seen (or at least seeable) when you're making your attack--which would spoil the advantage.

Unfortunately, the rules also don't say why unseen attackers gain advantage on attack rolls. An obvious answer is that its because the target doesn't know the attack is coming or from what direction, and is therefore not properly prepared to defend against it. Can we justify giving a "pop-out attack" this advantage based on the circumstances? If it meets that criteria (the target doesn't anticipate the attack or, at least, its direction and speed), I'd say yes (by strict DM judgment call).

[Side note--I take Unseen to be Undetected. It's more intuitive and covers more cases--such as creatures with blindsight.]

As for the topic at hand, I would consider what the Hidden status means. Obviously it means more than Unseen, since you can be in the next room and not be "Hidden". The Hiding Sidebar speaks of "signs of your presence" and "give away your position" so, even though it's not stated, we might infer that hiding refers to obscuring your presence (the fact that you're there at all) and/or your location (someone might know you're hiding somewhere, just not exactly where). Obviously, hiding your presence is more of an out-of-combat goal (sneaking past the sleeping dragon) while hiding your location (hiding from the angry ogre) is an in-combat goal.

Combat stealth means hiding your location from your foes. I would say that, after revealing your location with an attack you would have to move to a position where you location is obscured from your foes in order to hide again. If you were behind a pillar, can you duck back behind the same pillar and hide again? By my estimation no, because your location is known to your enemy, even if there is no line of sight. You have to move to a place of cover or concealment large enough to hide your precise location--the opponent has to lose track of your position. Whether or not they do is dependent on your stealth check. What locations are suitable for hiding in combat? Once again we are entirely in the realm of DM fiat.

So what we have with 5E is a rather poorly written section that outlines some basic tools (stealth vs. perception checks, advantage on attacks, cover and concealment) for the DM (and the DM only) to resolve specific situations. The rules explicitly give the DM full control of when someone can hide, where they can hide, and how far they can push their hidden status. In combat, the language of the hiding rules favor the observer, making them hard to sneak up on and attack, which require the DM to overrule for specific circumstances. The onus is on the stealthy-character to justify their stealth, which is harder to do in combat than out of combat.

So, to sum up, I would allow a "pop-up attack" at advantage, even though I don't believe this is strictly endorsed RAW, since I think in most circumstances such an attack from a previously hidden character would be unanticipated and, thus, worthy of advantage. At the same time, hiding and re-hiding in the midst of combat should be difficult and requires ample areas of cover and/or concealment.

The "pop-up attack" works solely because the target was no expecting the attacker to jump out from behind a pillar and shoot them with a crossbow bolt. Assuming the target survives they are now aware of the attacker and can track their position. To re-hide and attempt the "pop-up attack" again, the attacker needs to move to an area where their precise location can be concealed and then take the hide action.

The result is a system where stealth is effective out-of-combat and in ambush situations, but is harder to continuously exploit in most combats.
 

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