D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Harzel]

The difference is that the invisible guy is in a (relative) infinite area of darkness as opposed to standing in a 3m x 3m patch of it.

The invisible guy can make his position (and presence) sufficiently unknown. The dude standing in a small patch of darkness, cant.



He can be as quiet as he wants, but I wouldnt let him hide in there. No hide action allowed. No need to guess if he's in there or not, and no need to guess his square. He otherwise retains all the advantage of having heavy obscurement though.

Billy the Wizard cant cast Power word kill on him because he cant see him. Frank the Paladin cant make an attack of opportunity on him becuase he cant see him. Grog the Barbarian can run into the darkness swinging his axe like mad and can attack with disadvantage. He doesnt have to 'choose a square' to target. He just runs in there and (assuming the NPC is still in there) rolls his attack.

Ask me the same question in a larger area of darkness and the answer might be different. In that case it might very well be possible to go into hiding (as the combatants move around quietly in the darkness) if the combatants can mask their location with sufficient precision (similar to how an invisible person can).

I guess I sort of understand your reasoning, but it really doesn't seem to line up very well with other pieces of the mechanics and seems to potentially lead to absurd conclusions -- which I know you are not fond of . For instance, suppose two NPCs both go into the 20x20 darkness and Grog goes in swinging. If his attack can 'cover' the whole 20x20 area, does he get to attack them both?

Or perhaps more to the point, suppose the area is instead 50x50, which seems to be big enough that you would allow the NPC to hide. So presumably Grog now must guess where the NPC is in order to not automatically miss him. However, apparently, Grog can effectively attack a 20x20 area. So does Grog need to guess the 5x5 space that the NPC is in, or does he only need to guess some 20x20 area that the NPC is in? It seems that you run into some consistency issues if you say 5x5 or you're giving Grog a sort of AoE attack if you say 20x20.

 

[Flamestrike]

So one character can make a single attack to cover an entire 10x10 area?

Absolutely. I could swing a sword around madly covering a 10' x 10' darkened area over the space of six seconds. Couldnt you?

Important to remember is the NPC in this scenario is not hidden, so Grog the barbarian isnt swinging wildly in the darkness. He is presumed to have enough of a clue as to where the NPC is with enough precision to not have to wave his sword all over the darkness in hope. He can charge in the darkness in the NPCs general direction, and have a few swings at the NPC (make an attack at disadvantage).

He only needs to guess a square if the NPC is hidden. This NPC isnt hidden (he wasnt allowed to even roll).

The rules state a medium sized charter occupies a 5x5 area.

No it doesnt. What it says is:

'A creature’s space is the area in feet that it effectivelycontrols in combat, not an expression of its physicaldimensions. A typical Medium creature isn’t 5 feet wide,for example, but it does control a space that wide. If aMedium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway,other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblinlets them. A creature’s space also reflects the area it needs to fighteffectively.'

'5' x 5' squares' are an abstraction. Its a rough approximation of the area that a creature controls in combat, and the room it needs to fight effectively. Remember, unless I'm using the 'playing with a grid' rules variant, 5' squares dont even exist (and even then, they only exist as an abstraction of a creatures approximate location).

Two creatures with swords out swinging wildly (both standing in a patch of darkness with 10' x 10' dimensions) can make attacks against each other. I'm not going to make them 'guess a square to target' first.

I will probably require it if one of them is hidden however.

Okay lets say that the pcs saw the NPC go into a 50x50 area of darkness. When can the npc attempt to hide?

Probably straight away (depending on movement and so forth). The creature has enough space (in this scenario) to hide without the observers being able to see him 'going into hiding'. I reckon moving around in a 50' x 50' area is probably enough for our NPC to attempt to conceal his location with sufficient precision so that the PC observers dont know where he is (outside of knowing he is in the 50' x 50' area of darkness somewhere). We're getting closer to a situation now where he has room to move about and go into hiding without our observing PCs being able to see him doing so.

In other words, in this scenario his location is sufficently hard to pin down and to know with precision (i.e. see him go into hiding), and he can take the hide action.

Subject to a succesful stealth check via the hide action (representing him moving quietly and masking his location within the darkness), our PCs are going to have to either 1) Use the Search action to find him (listening intently) or 2) make a lucky guess as to his location within the darkness.

Assuming our NPC is now hidden, Grog the Barbarian is going to have to pick a square to target now (and a path through the darkness within which to charge through, which might also reveal our hidden foe).

 

[Flamestrike]

I guess I sort of understand your reasoning, but it really doesn't seem to line up very well with other pieces of the mechanics and seems to potentially lead to absurd conclusions -- which I know you are not fond of . For instance, suppose two NPCs both go into the 20x20 darkness and Grog goes in swinging. If his attack can 'cover' the whole 20x20 area, does he get to attack them both?

Or perhaps more to the point, suppose the area is instead 50x50, which seems to be big enough that you would allow the NPC to hide. So presumably Grog now must guess where the NPC is in order to not automatically miss him. However, apparently, Grog can effectively attack a 20x20 area. So does Grog need to guess the 5x5 space that the NPC is in, or does he only need to guess some 20x20 area that the NPC is in? It seems that you run into some consistency issues if you say 5x5 or you're giving Grog a sort of AoE attack if you say 20x20.

Grog isnt targetting a 20 x 20 area. He doesnt need to, as the NPC he's fighting isnt hidden. Grog is presumed to have enough of an idea of where that NPC is to lauch an attack against him (at disadvantage thanks to not being able to see the NPC).

 

[fjw70]

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], your responses get more and more absurd as we continue to discuss. I appreciate that you can rule your game as you see fit but you seem to have very little understanding of the RAW. Let's summarize, according to the rules of 5e:

-- Being hidden has nothing to do with object permanence
-- The only requirement to attempt to hide is to not be seen clearly when you take the hide action (what you did and who saw you do it earlier in the round is irrelevant)

It really is pretty simple. Not sure why you are trying to complicate it so much. But I have enjoyed our little back and forth. I commend your stamina when arguing from such shaky ground and in the face of superior logic.

Good night. (I would have been to bed hours ago but I am off work tomorrow and enjoying a rare late night up).

 

[Flamestrike]

@Flamestrike, your responses get more and more absurd as we continue to discuss.

No, they're not getting absurd. In fact each one makes perfect sense.

RAW says... the only requirement is to not be seen clearly when you take the hide action

The RAW doesnt say this. The words 'hide action' are not mentioned at all. This is what is says:

The GM decides when the circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of a creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such shouting a warning or knocking over a vase.

Note: 'You can't [hide] from a creature that can see you clearly' and NOT'You can't [take the hide action] from a creature that can see you clearly' or better yet, 'You must break LOS in order to take the Hide action'.

The bolded line is just a statement of common sense. As in: 'If I see you crawl into a box and close the lid, you are not hidden from me once you close that lid, because I saw you going into hiding, and you cant hide from a creature that can see you do so.'

You're interpreting the passage above as if its some form of permissive rule [break LOS = Hide action allowed]. Its not anything of the sort.

 

[fjw70]

Can you see me clearly in the box? No, then I can hide.

The rules don't say you cannot hide if you were seen clearly a few seconds ago (I.e. Earlier in the round). The requirement to hide is not being seen clearly. Period. That is exactly what happens when you break line of sight.

You are adding extra requirements such as who saw you earlier in the round or that you need an area much larger than an area you normally occupy. Again, these things are fine as DM rulings but they are not RAW.

 

[Vulf]

Rogues can deal sneak attack damage without being hidden, so they still function without hiding every turn.

The DM is the final arbiter on whether you are hidden or not.

"You can't see me, Orcs! My check is too high for your perception!"

"There's only one bush you could be hiding behind, elf."

 

[Flamestrike]

Can you see me clearly in the box? No, then I can hide.

No you cant, because the act of you getting in the box is part of the act of you hiding from me.

Using plain english.

You're parsing [getting in the box] and [taking the hide action].

In plain english, there is no parsing. You climbing in the box, is you attempting to hide from me.

If you climb in the box while I observe you, you are not hidden in that box. No amount of being quiet is going to make you hidden.

If you climb inside the box while I am not observing you, you can be hidden in that box. It depends on how silent you can be inside that box (represented by your stealth check to hide). If you pass your stealth check to hide, you are hidden. I dont know you're in the box. If you fail, I hear you in that box, and you are not hidden from me.

See where you're going wrong yet?

You are adding extra requirements such as who saw you earlier in the round or that you need an area much larger than an area you normally occupy. Again, these things are fine as DM rulings but they are not RAW.

I'm not adding (or removing) any extra requirements to hiding. I'm just interpreting the sentence 'you cant hide from someone who can see you' in its plain english every day normal meaning (as it was intended to be read).

Not as rules jargon.

 

[Harzel]

Grog isnt targetting a 20 x 20 area. He doesnt need to, as the NPC he's fighting isnt hidden. Grog is presumed to have enough of an idea of where that NPC is to lauch an attack against him (at disadvantage thanks to not being able to see the NPC).

Well, the longer this goes on, the more things bother me about it. Which is odd, because back at the beginning of the thread I seem to recall thinking that what you were saying was quite sensible. Anyway, I guess I will take them one at a time.

So suppose instead of Grog, we have Randy the Ranger who is shooting arrows into the 20x20 darkness trying to hit Sam the NPC who entered the darkened area moments ago on his turn. Is Randy's situation the same as Grog's, that is, he attacks at disadvantage, but does not have to guess Sam's location?

 

[Flamestrike]

Well, the longer this goes on, the more things bother me about it. Which is odd, because back at the beginning of the thread I seem to recall thinking that what you were saying was quite sensible. Anyway, I guess I will take them one at a time.

So suppose instead of Grog, we have Randy the Ranger who is shooting arrows into the 20x20 darkness trying to hit Sam the NPC who entered the darkened area moments ago on his turn. Is Randy's situation the same as Grog's, that is, he attacks at disadvantage, but does not have to guess Sam's location?

Sam isnt hidden. Randy (being the good little Ranger that he is) is thus assumed to be able to know Sams location in the tiny little patch of darkness he's in with enough accuracy that he can lob an arrow at Sams general vicinity.

Those shots are not very accurate though due to the darkness, so Randy has disadvantage to his attack roll.

The same is the case if (instead of running into a dark corner) Sam instead cast invisibility. Until Sam takes the hide action, Randy the ranger can shoot him (at disadvantage).

Of course, being invisible in this second example, Sam can use his action (or bonus action if Sam happens to be a Rogue 2+) to attempt to Hide at will.

Until he does so [hide] however, Randy can keep on shooting (generally).