D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Flamestrike]

Remember @fjw70 I did say the enemy creature (in your example moving into a patch of darkness containing a secret door unknown to the PCs) could (if he wanted) enter the darkness, and (under the cover of darkness) sneakily open the secret door and slink off (accordingly he could use the Hide action because he wasnt being watched going into hiding).

Its no different than the magicians assistant in the box using his secret trapdoor to do the same, or the 'teleporting away behind the pillar' example.

All your bad guy has done, is move into a small patch of darkness and open a secret door.

Loudly.

We can rewind the encounter to turn 1 if you want your bad guy to [quietly move into the darkness, use his free object interation to open the door, and then sneak off down the hidden corridoor unobserved via the Hide action]. You only added the secret door after the fact.

In this case, the PCs can shoot into the darkness all they want. He aint there (he's hidden elsewhere and the PCs dont know where he is).

If he fails his stealth check the PCs hear him open the door and the sounds of his footsteps as they echo down the hallway as he flees.

 

[fjw70]

Fire away (at disadvantage of course thanks to the darkness).



If he hasnt taken the hide action [using the secret door to slink off and hide on his previous turn], for sure.

If he hasnt done so, then the PCs are assumed to hear the secret door being opened, the jangling of his armor, the sounds of his footsteps on the cobblestones, his desperate breathing as he flees for his life etc.

They're (on the next round) reacting to the sound of a secret door being opened a fraction of a second after hearing it.

Like I said, they can pop off a shot from a bow (at disadvantage) towards the sound.

So you would allow the NPC to attempt the hide action? Let's assume no secret door. Can he take the action the round he goes into the darkness or does he have to wait around?

 

[fjw70]

I don't know, do they? Do you?

Flamestrike narrated what would happen initially exactly as I would (assuming nothing strange like boots of elvenkind or a silence spell or some actual attempt to be stealthy or some odor the target might be emanating. Darkness doesn't shut off your other senses)

Thats the point. If the npc doesn't take the hide action then the other senses allow the PCs to know which 5x5 space he is in. He needs to hide action to hide which square he is in.

 

[Flamestrike]

So you would allow the NPC to attempt the hide action?

As long as he can move to a position of hiding [sufficiently masking his location with sufficent precision] then yes of course.

I have no problem with him entering a darkened corner [no Hide action allowed] and when in there, opening a hidden secret door and quietly sneaking off [Hide action allowed].

Let's assume no secret door. Can he take the action the round he goes into the darkness or does he have to wait around?

He can wait all he wants. The PCs saw him go into the darkness, he's in there, no hiding from the PCs allowed in this circumstance full stop. They watched him go there. They can attack him at disadvantage each and every round.

He is immune to AoO and many spells (which require a target you can see) and all attacks on him are at disadvantage, but he cant hide in there (relative to these PCs).

 

[fjw70]

He can wait all he wants. The PCs saw him go into the darkness, he's in there, no hiding from the PCs allowed in this circumstance full stop. They watched him go there. They can attack him at disadvantage each and every round.

So npc is in complete darkness and cannot hide? How is this different than an npc that turns invisible in front of the pcs? He can hide but the darkness guy can't?

 

[Harzel]

As long as he can move to a position of hiding [sufficiently masking his location with sufficent precision] then yes of course.

I have no problem with him entering a darkened corner [no Hide action allowed] and when in there, opening a hidden secret door and quietly sneaking off [Hide action allowed].



He can wait all he wants. The PCs saw him go into the darkness, he's in there, no hiding from the PCs allowed in this circumstance full stop. They watched him go there. They can attack him at disadvantage each and every round.

He is immune to AoO and many spells (which require a target you can see) and all attacks on him are at disadvantage, but he cant hide in there (relative to these PCs).

Ok, suppose the darkened area is 20' x 20' (and there is no secret door but there is plenty of room to move around).

1. Do you allow the NPC to attempt to be stealthy while moving around in the darkness (whether or not you call it 'hiding')?
2. If you do allow it and his stealth check beats the PCs' perception check(s), do the PCs know where he is or do they have to guess?
3. If they have to guess and guess wrong do their attacks automatically miss?

 

[Flamestrike]

So npc is in complete darkness and cannot hide? How is this different than an npc that turns invisible in front of the pcs? He can hide but the darkness guy can't?

The difference is that the invisible guy is in a (relative) infinite area of darkness as opposed to standing in a 3m x 3m patch of it.

The invisible guy can make his position (and presence) sufficiently unknown. The dude standing in a small patch of darkness, cant.

Ok, suppose the darkened area is 20' x 20' (and there is no secret door but there is plenty of room to move around).

1. Do you allow the NPC to attempt to be stealthy while moving around in the darkness (whether or not you call it 'hiding')?
2. If you do allow it and his stealth check beats the PCs' perception check(s), do the PCs know where he is or do they have to guess?
3. If they have to guess and guess wrong do their attacks automatically miss?

He can be as quiet as he wants, but I wouldnt let him hide in there. No hide action allowed. No need to guess if he's in there or not, and no need to guess his square. He otherwise retains all the advantage of having heavy obscurement though.

Billy the Wizard cant cast Power word kill on him because he cant see him. Frank the Paladin cant make an attack of opportunity on him becuase he cant see him. Grog the Barbarian can run into the darkness swinging his axe like mad and can attack with disadvantage. He doesnt have to 'choose a square' to target. He just runs in there and (assuming the NPC is still in there) rolls his attack.

Ask me the same question in a larger area of darkness and the answer might be different. In that case it might very well be possible to go into hiding (as the combatants move around quietly in the darkness) if the combatants can mask their location with sufficient precision (similar to how an invisible person can).

 

[Flamestrike]

Thats the point. If the npc doesn't take the hide action then the other senses allow the PCs to know which 5x5 space he is in. He needs to hide action to hide which square he is in.

Its just a pity that the NPC is in such a small area of darkness (and the PCs saw him go there) that he cant take the Hide action forcing the PCs to guess a square to target. He retains all the goodness of heavy obscurement however (immune to AoO, immune to most targetted spells, attack rolls against him are made with disadvantage).

Now if the PCs were in (say) a 50 x 50 room of magical darkness, everyone could take the Hide action relative to each other as they moved about the room. My view is that the creatures in that room could make their position sufficiently obscure to enable the hide action (i.e. slink off into a corner quietly)

Like the rules say, the DM determines when a creature can Hide (i.e. when it can make its location or presence sufficiently unknown) or not.

A creature running into a 20 x 20 area of darkness wouldnt cut it for mine.

A creature in a field of long grass, sniping the party from 100' away, ducking down into the grass and crawling away would be sufficient to enable him to attempt to mask his location and become hidden. An invisible creature (expressly) can always attempt to Hide.

It all depends on the situation.

 

[fjw70]

Its just a pity that the NPC is in such a small area of darkness (and the PCs saw him go there) that he cant take the Hide action forcing the PCs to guess a square to target. He retains all the goodness of heavy obscurement however (immune to AoO, immune to most targetted spells, attack rolls against him are made with disadvantage).

Now if the PCs were in (say) a 50 x 50 room of magical darkness, everyone could take the Hide action relative to each other as they moved about the room. My view is that the creatures in that room could make their position sufficiently obscure to enable the hide action (i.e. slink off into a corner quietly)

Like the rules say, the DM determines when a creature can Hide (i.e. when it can make its location or presence sufficiently unknown) or not.

A creature running into a 20 x 20 area of darkness wouldnt cut it for mine.

A creature in a field of long grass, sniping the party from 100' away, ducking down into the grass and crawling away would be sufficient to enable him to attempt to mask his location and become hidden. An invisible creature (expressly) can always attempt to Hide.

It all depends on the situation.

Okay lets say that the pcs saw the NPC go into a 50x50 area of darkness. When can the npc attempt to hide?

 

[fjw70]

The difference is that the invisible guy is in a (relative) infinite area of darkness as opposed to standing in a 3m x 3m patch of it.

The invisible guy can make his position (and presence) sufficiently unknown. The dude standing in a small patch of darkness, cant.



He can be as quiet as he wants, but I wouldnt let him hide in there. No hide action allowed. No need to guess if he's in there or not, and no need to guess his square. He otherwise retains all the advantage of having heavy obscurement though.

Billy the Wizard cant cast Power word kill on him because he cant see him. Frank the Paladin cant make an attack of opportunity on him becuase he cant see him. Grog the Barbarian can run into the darkness swinging his axe like mad and can attack with disadvantage. He doesnt have to 'choose a square' to target. He just runs in there and (assuming the NPC is still in there) rolls his attack.

Ask me the same question in a larger area of darkness and the answer might be different. In that case it might very well be possible to go into hiding (as the combatants move around quietly in the darkness) if the combatants can mask their location with sufficient precision (similar to how an invisible person can).

So one character can make a single attack to cover an entire 10x10 area? The rules state a medium sized charter occupies a 5x5 area.