D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Hriston]

There is no such rule. The rule is that you roll once to hide and you remain hidden until something ends it. There is no such thing in the rules as a "sustained effort" when it comes to hiding. You don't get to invent rules in order to explain away plain English that proves you wrong.

You haven't proven me wrong. The rule is that you stop hiding if you make noise or come out of hiding. Not staying quiet and out of sight is not trying to hide. Not trying to hide reveals your location to potential observers and gets you unhidden. As long as you are trying to hide, your Dexterity (Stealth) check is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any potential observers who may notice you.

 

[Maxperson]

That's very much up to the DM. Wood elves can hide in light obscurement where other races can't, but it does not magically let them find obscurement where none exists. My ruling would be that falling snow/rain provides exactly 0 obscurement from someone just 5 feet away.

True. I was just pointing out that as written, they can hide in full view under those conditions. Of course the DM can rule differently.

 

[Maxperson]

You haven't proven me wrong. The rule is that you stop hiding if you make noise or come out of hiding.

You have not provided any rule that says the initial role isn't all that is required to stay silent forever. Show a rule that says that ongoing effort is required to stay silent.

Not staying quiet and out of sight is not trying to hide. Not trying to hide reveals your location to potential observers and gets you unhidden. As long as you are trying to hide, your Dexterity (Stealth) check is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any potential observers who may notice you.

False. There is no rule that says this. A single roll at the beginning is all that RAW requires in order to be silent the entire time. This ongoing effort thing is nothing more than assumption and rules additions on your part. You make one check at the very beginning and that check is what is contested by stealth. There is no "keep trying to hide" in the rules. You are hidden by that first roll until you decide to end being hidden or you are discovered another way.

I'm all for adding realism to the game, and from a realism point of view, what you are saying makes perfect sense. It's not RAW, though. There is no rule that says there are ongoing efforts to try and hide and if you don't do that, you come out of hiding.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

True. I was just pointing out that as written, they can hide in full view under those conditions. Of course the DM can rule differently.

The issue was about whether or not a specific condition is present, not if anyone in particular could hide there.

So it's kinda orthogonal to the "mask of the wild" ability. Light obscurement isn't just for elves to hide in, it also means disadvantage for all vision-based perception tests.

It would seem weird if you'd suddenly have disadvantage to find a secret door in a wall just in front of your nose just because it happens to be snowing. If you're 10 meters away however then I'd assume that the snow will be blocking enough of your view that disadvantage is warranted.

 

[Maxperson]

The issue was about whether or not a specific condition is present, not if anyone in particular could hide there.

The condition is present if it meets what is printed in the ability. Heavy rain, mist, falling snow, and foliage.

So it's kinda orthogonal to the "mask of the wild" ability. Light obscurement isn't just for elves to hide in, it also means disadvantage for all vision-based perception tests.

It would seem weird if you'd suddenly have disadvantage to find a secret door in a wall just in front of your nose just because it happens to be snowing. If you're 10 meters away however then I'd assume that the snow will be blocking enough of your view that disadvantage is warranted.

I grew up in an area with snowfall. Snowfall is very distracting and even at a very close range, would make finding a secret door harder. Further, the cold involved would add greater difficulties, unless you were wearing gloves which would add greater difficulties(assuming you had to feel for hidden mechanisms). I could totally see falling snow giving disadvantage at close range.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Attempt to hide = attempt to stay hidden = attempt to keep your location secret. The distinction you make between becoming hidden and staying hidden is of your own creation.

No you're the one making funny creations! When you try to hide you're not hidden already loll

 

[Uller]

Attempt to hide = attempt to stay hidden = attempt to keep your location secret.

And that is where a lot of folks (including Sage Advice) disagree with you. Hiding (in game terms) is using a stealth check to be unseen and unheard. It is not necessarily limited to having your location unknown.

Once you understand that, SA's statement about being able to hide while being stared at makes sense without ignoring the context of his answer.



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[auburn2]

As far as the OP three things you could do:

I assume your rogue isn't attacking regularly and is just hiding for most of the battle. If he attacks, that will come on the same turn as his BA meaning he will either hide then attack or attack then hide. If it is the latter it must a ranged attack because someone in melee can't usually hide effectively.

So if your rogue is not attacking then he is pretty invulnerable to a lot of things, and that is by design, barring highly perceptive monsters, blindsight, AOEs or something like that you are going to have a tough time hitting a rogue that is purposely staying out of harms way.

If your rogue is attacking then you have a few more options to counter hiding:

1. movement and closing avenues of approach to limit his options.
2. ready action - this is costly but can be effective, for best results with multiple opponents grapple. That eliminates hiding on future rounds if successful. Also faerie fire as a ready spell will really screw the rogue.
3. turn the tables and give him high level rogues to fight.

 

[pemerton]

You have not provided any rule that says the initial role isn't all that is required to stay silent forever.

<snip>

A single roll at the beginning is all that RAW requires in order to be silent the entire time. This ongoing effort thing is nothing more than assumption and rules additions on your part.

<snip>

There is no rule that says there are ongoing efforts to try and hide and if you don't do that, you come out of hiding.

This can't be right.

For instance, if a character uses an action (or a bonus cunning action) to make a DEX check to hide, and then starts beating on his/her shield with his/her sword, s/he doesn't remain silent. Hence s/he doesn't remain hidden (SRD p 80: "you give away your position if you make noise").

As I understand it, this is the point that [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] is making - that to remain hidden, you have to maintain the conditions that ensure your position isn't given away (eg you must refrain from deliberately making noise, you must remain from deliberately providing visual cues, etc - the DEX roll tells us whether or not you inadvertantly make noise or provide visual cues).

As I understand it, the point of the elf or halfling abilities is not that they can be simultaneously hidden and noticed (which would be an absurd contradiction) but that they can be hidden in conditions where most people would be noticed. When Sage Advice says

The lightfoot halfling and wood elf traits—Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when observers are nearby. Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes​

it seems fairly clear to me: normally you can't hide if you're in full view (invisibility, or some forms of distraction, might generate exceptions to this general proposition), but an elf in a mist or snowfall is not in full view. Rather, nature itself cloaks the elf. As long as the snow continues, the elf will continue to be cloaked, and hence will remain hidden (as long as s/he doesn't deliberately make noise or provide visual cues, and as long as the DEX check is successful and hence s/he doesn't inadvertently make noise or provide visual cues).

I would think it is obvious that, in so far as the elf remains cloaked and hence hidden, s/he is not being observed. People might be looking - even staring - in his/her direction, but if nature is cloaking the elf and the elf is neither deliberately nor inadvertently providing visual cues then s/he is not being observed. Hidden is basically synonymous with concealed from sight!

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION]

A question about how you handle something:

When a character (PC or NPC, I don't think it matters but am happy to be corrected on that) becomes hidden but doesn't change location, how do you handle that? It came up in a recent session of mine when an NPC turned invisible but had no movement left in the round. It could also come up if it starts snowing and a wood elf makes a DEX check to hide.

My approach to date is to just apply the hiding rules as written - the character is not seen nor otherwise noticed - but it can sometimes produce results that feel a little bit strange in play. One idea I remember [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] suggesting (maybe in a tweet/) is to penalise the DEX check (or maybe buff the WIS check for perception - much the same thing at this level of abstraction).

Do you have any thoughts on this, or have you ever had it come up in your game?