D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

*snip*So, if the fighter is an idiot and doesn't attack for one turn (because the archer is between 35 and 60 feet away), the archer has a 0.19641254455470933661563710028979 turn advantage on the fighter (assuming optimized Con, as that seems like the logical choice for both builds). If the fighter plays it smart, numerically speaking, he will get one round of javelin attacks in before closing.

It seems like you're assuming the archer will just stand still and let the fighter close. That's not the case except in close terrain. If you start at 60', move 30', and throw a javelin, you're getting one attack (at disadvantage if you lose initiative, which you're likely to do because of lower Dex) and the enemy is getting four attacks, then you're back at 60' distance and have to do it all over again. Clear advantage in favor of the ranged guy. In reality you have no realistic option but to "be an idiot", as you call it, taking 4 attacks per 30' of initial distance between you, unless the archer cannot move.

(I'm neglecting Action Surge here because both sides have it.)

There are a couple of other things worth pointing out:

(1) Archers are typically movement-optimized, much more likely (IME) than the melee dude to have something like Expeditious Retreat available.

(2) Your assumption of Dex 19 unrealistically penalizes the ranged guy's AC, which is the source of most of the melee dude's higher DPR. A typical 11th level Eldritch Knight Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert will have AC 18 by that level. (Mage Armor 13 + 5 from Dex 20.)
 

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[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] I have to ask...why would a Marilith allow herself to be killed by flying archers?

More to the point: what options does she have for preventing it? Other than "don't go where there are flying archers."

Answer: nothing.

There's nothing stopping the DM from modifying the Marilith to be more terrifying (longer-ranged teleport usable as a bonus action would go a long way) but the MM version doesn't have the capability to do what you imply.
 

It seems like you're assuming the archer will just stand still and let the fighter close. That's not the case except in close terrain.

You are right. I wasn't accounting for kiting (mostly because I have never seen kiting happen in a real game, and I wanted to avoid white-room conceits that skew the example away from reality as much as possible). In a simple white plane, however, I guess kiting would become a thing. So, the fighter would probably use dash to close the distance completely.

If you start at 60', move 30', and throw a javelin, you're getting one attack (at disadvantage if you lose initiative, which you're likely to do because of lower Dex) and the enemy is getting four attacks, then you're back at 60' distance and have to do it all over again.

Um, this is something of a nit-pick, but you would get 3 attacks (not one). This isn't 3e. You don't need to take a full-round action to get a full suit of attacks. You are right though, in a white room scenario where nothing dissuades anyone from kiting, kiting would become a thing. In the encounters I have actually played, however, I have never seen kiting happen. There was always some factor that stopped such events.

(1) Archers are typically movement-optimized, much more likely (IME) than the melee dude to have something like Expeditious Retreat available.

Honestly, I really think that depends on the player. As such, I didn't want to start nit-picking such details in a white-room analysis. You are right, however, in stating that white-room analyses are imperfect. In a whiteroom, kiting seems reasonable. In a whiteroom, terrain is ignored. In a white-room, specific character build features are ignored (unless you end up testing specific builds for one reason or another). It doesn't change my overall summation though. You aren't going to build an archer who is better in melee ranges than a melee build.

(2) Your assumption of Dex 19 unrealistically penalizes the ranged guy's AC, which is the source of most of the melee dude's higher DPR. A typical 11th level Eldritch Knight Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert will have AC 18 by that level. (Mage Armor 13 + 5 from Dex 20.)

Um, no, my assumption of Dex 19 doesn't. If you use the starting stats or point buy, and you spend two of your stat increases on feats, the highest Dex you can have by level 11 is 19. So, assuming a Dex of 19 isn't an unrealistic penalty at all! It is part of the built in assumptions of the game. I didn't account for Mage Armor for the same reason I didn't account for any build specific details beyond feat choices: the inherent weakness of a whiteroom analysis. I am sure that if I start looking for ways to optimize my damage and AC as a melee fighter, I can find ways to twist the numbers further in my favor as well. For example, I can build a battle master to match your eldritch knight. It will use maneuvers to disarm your archer and push it away after it closes range, thus depriving it of its xbow/at least one round of attacks once I close range. As this is a whiteroom, it will also spam all of its superiority dice over the course of a single fight. Or I could take the time to think up an eldritch knight with a spell list designed to hamper the plans of an archer foe. I didn't, however, take the time to create a specific build. There is no point. The point is only to show that given the assumptions of the game (the starting stats/point values given to players, the number of feats you can have, and the equipment we can assume--as a given--that characters of that level will have), a melee based fighter is significantly better in melee and is fairly balance even if the melee based character starts from 35-60 feet away. He is. If the fight starts within 35-60 feet, the results of the fight will be close to 50/50. If the fight starts within 30 feet, the melee-based character will almost always win. If the fight starts over 60 feet away, statistics significantly favor the archer (and I think they should). Given that reality, I don't accept the premise of this thread.
 
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More to the point: what options does she have for preventing it? Other than "don't go where there are flying archers."

Answer: nothing.

There's nothing stopping the DM from modifying the Marilith to be more terrifying (longer-ranged teleport usable as a bonus action would go a long way) but the MM version doesn't have the capability to do what you imply.

I'm not really implying anything...I'm asking what the Marilith should do in such a situation.

Let's say you're running the Marilith. A group of lesser, winged demons armed with ranged weapons sets upon you for the cruelty you've inflicted upon them over the years. What do you do? No modifications to the Marilith's stat block for this...just as is, what do you have her do?
 

I'm not really implying anything...I'm asking what the Marilith should do in such a situation.

Let's say you're running the Marilith. A group of lesser, winged demons armed with ranged weapons sets upon you for the cruelty you've inflicted upon them over the years. What do you do? No modifications to the Marilith's stat block for this...just as is, what do you have her do?

Assuming the winged demons are playing it smart (e.g. not getting within teleport range), then if she's caught out in the open, I narrate the end of the combat and move on. "Deirdre the Marilith dies like a many-armed pincushion, shrieking curses upon her murderers."

If the demons (are they PCs or NPCs?) think to check the body, they may realize that she's actually only feigning death (Deception check) but actually has 40-50 HP left. This isn't true of course if they kept on shooting her "corpse" to bits after her "death". If they do keep shooting her, then after three or four hits (when she's down to 20-30 HP) she switches to (almost-certainly-futile) maledictions, bluffs, and threats. "By the Threefold Flame I curse thee! Slay me now and thy flesh shall rot from off thy very bones within the fortnight, and my shade consume thy soul to rise again!" Etc.

But of course I wouldn't put myself in that situation as a DM, because I foresee it soon enough to revamp Mariliths before it occurs, e.g. by actually giving them a death curse and/or improved movement capabilities or at the very least a magical item or two. Something that would allow them to actually dominate other demons effectively.
 

Um, this is something of a nit-pick, but you would get 3 attacks (not one). This isn't 3e. You don't need to take a full-round action to get a full suit of attacks. You are right though, in a white room scenario where nothing dissuades anyone from kiting, kiting would become a thing. In the encounters I have actually played, however, I have never seen kiting happen. There was always some factor that stopped such events.

You misunderstand. Javelins are rate-limited by your object interactions. You can no more draw three javelins in a single turn than you can draw three swords. The rules for ammunition prevent this hampering ranged weapons ("Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack") but javelins are thrown weapons, not ammunition.

You could throw one javelin and then make two shield bashes on an adjacent target, but you cannot throw three javelins unless you're starting with one javelin in each hand and then draw the third as your object interaction.

I've seen kiting happen rather a lot, especially at low levels. It takes a fairly contrived scenario (e.g. movement only via teleportation gates) to make kiting impossible.

Um, no, my assumption of Dex 19 doesn't. If you use the starting stats or point buy, and you spend two of your stat increases on feats, the highest Dex you can have by level 11 is 19. So, assuming a Dex of 19 isn't an unrealistic penalty at all!

Point buy is a variant rule, but let's say it is point buy or standard array. Dex 15, human, means you start with Dex 16 and Crossbow Expert. By level 11 you've had three more ASIs, which gets you Sharpshooter and Dex 20. QED.

(Using the standard 4d6 roll, the majority of PCs will have at least one ability score of 16+. Point buy is weak, perhaps deliberately on WotC's part.)

Nitpick, but Eldritch Knights can't be disarmed by Battlemaster Disarm due to Weapon Bond.

To address your larger point: yes, the advantage of ranged weapons lies chiefly in their tactical characteristics, not the raw numbers. If all fights were duels between PCs, then yes, if all fights started at 5' range, then melee PCs would have an advantage. (At 10' I don't find your analysis compelling because it neglects initiative--the ranged fighter can get a free round of attacks if he wins initiative, but the reverse is not true for the melee guy, and the ranged guy is more likely to win initiative because he is pumping Dex.) The major advantage of melee fighters at that range would lie in their ability to Grapple/Prone the ranged dude before commencing a beat-down; Dex-based fighters have a tough time escaping from a grapple because they can't use the normal Fighter-y means of escape very effectively (Pushing the enemy away w/ Strength (Athletics)).

But no realistic game takes place entirely under that narrow set of conditions which gives melee the advantage you posit. E.g. most PCs play in parties of at least three PCs, and range-specialized PCs have better mutual support and defensive characteristics in that scenario, no matter whether they're on the salt flats or navigating 2' wide corridors in a stone labyrinth. I gave one example previously, here's another: one ranged dude can Dodge all up in a monster's face while the other two kill the monster. If a melee-heavy party tries that it will just ignore the Dodging guy. Range specialization gives you more tactical options.

Melee does have some advantages, but they're not the numerical ones you have been emphasizing so far. Strength (Athletics) really is the key differentiator for melee PCs; feats like Sentinel and Warcaster can help too. But those advantages are mostly about tanking, not inflicting damage, which means that the optimal party configuration is still (generally) to have the bulk of your firepower be ranged with just enough tanking specialists to provide a front line when needed--and the best tanks aren't warriors anyway.
 
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You misunderstand. Javelins are rate-limited by your object interactions. You can no more draw three javelins in a single turn than you can draw three swords. The rules for ammunition prevent this hampering ranged weapons ("Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack") but javelins are thrown weapons, not ammunition.

Ah. I see what you are saying. I didn't think of that. My bad. Mind on other things and all that jazz. Fair enough. So the fighter puts a 12 or 14 in Dex and uses a longbow as its ranged fallback. I have seen more than one melee character do that at the tables I have played at. Or it starts with a handaxe in each hand and tosses both, then it unsheaths a third axe to toss that too. I have seen that happen before as well.

I've seen kiting happen rather a lot, especially at low levels. It takes a fairly contrived scenario (e.g. movement only via teleportation gates) to make kiting impossible.

You and I seem to play at very different tables. I have never seen kiting happen (in any of the groups I have played with), and it has never been because of a contrived scenario (except for one time). Most of the time, kiting doesn't happen because it would interfere with the goals of the group or the NPCs: guard a specific location, capture a specific target, etc. Kiting simply would not have fullfilled the goals of the ranged attackers, so they didn't kite. Other times, kiting didn't happen due to group synergy. No point to kite if you have melee based characters fullfilling their role on the front line (thus keeping the ranged characters out of melee combat anyway). Different playstyles I guess.
 

A few other things to not forget!

Archers can wear medium armor which is only 1 AC behind heavy armor. Therefor archers should only ever be 1 AC behind their melee counterparts. Archers in general can afford better stats because they can entirely neglect strength but a melee warrior should probably still have a 12-14 Dex.

Archers have better Dex saves which effectively gives them more HP than their melee counterparts. Dex saves tend to be some of the most common saves in the game. Even though Archers will have lower STR saves than their melee counterparts, most STR saves only knock you prone, which is not that big of a deal for a ranged warrior.

Champion archers get two combat boosting fighting styles while great weapon fighters only have 1. Point blank shot can be a huge boost to power for close range combat.

Archers can still make opportunity attacks. By RAW, due to the wording of archery fighting style, they can use their crossbow as an improvised weapon but still gain the +2 bonus to hit because it is a ranged weapon.

Battlemaster archers are far more potent than battlemaster melee warriors. Pushing attack, trip attack, and menacing attack provide much more battlefield control when used at range than in melee. Tripping a flying enemy causing them to fall 100ft can be especially brutal. Pushing enemies back or knocking them prone can keep them at range for multiple rounds.

Archers can run up to melee to shoot enemies who hide behind total cover just as well as melee warriors can. Using cover as an argument doesn't actually make any sense.

Even if most fights take place where enemies are within 30 feet at all times, the archer will still take less damage than the melee warrior overall.

Archers are much better at taking care of enemies who are attempting to flee.

Archers are also better at taking out enemy spellcasters or other choice targets who are behind a defensive line. Since archers ignore partial cover, they can fire at the mate who is behind a wall of enemy soldiers. The melee warrior is stuck with only being able to engage enemies in the front line. This targeting capability is especially important given that most enemies in the rear tend to have lower AC and fewer HP while simultaneously having greater damage output. Being able to kill such targets before taking out the front line tends to have a much greater impact on outcome of any particular battle.

Basically archers can do everything a melee focused warrior can about as well as the melee warrior, but with the added benefit of being able to perform incredibly well at range.

IMHO, the way the game is designed, the ranged warrior shouldn't even be close to the damage of the melee warrior. If the ranged warrior was truly squishy or truly pathetic in melee combat I might understand them having similar damage. But that simply isn't the case. Fighting styles and feats complete negate any potential penalties the ranged warrior might face.

I believe that melee warriors should have 10-20% more effective HP and 10-20% more damage than an a ranged warrior given the difficulty most melee warriors face in combat (flying enemies, opportunity attacks, being knocked prone, enemies at range greater than 30ft, enemies spread out more than 30 ft, choice targets in the back ranks, etc). Instead, archers tend to deal more damage and have similar defenses.
 

Ah. I see what you are saying. I didn't think of that. My bad. Mind on other things and all that jazz. Fair enough. So the fighter puts a 12 or 14 in Dex and uses a longbow as its ranged fallback. I have seen more than one melee character do that at the tables I have played at. Or it starts with a handaxe in each hand and tosses both, then it unsheaths a third axe to toss that too. I have seen that happen before as well.

And in all of these cases, you're now in a ranged combat duel with a guy who is specialized in ranged combat. He has better (Archery style, Dex 20) and possibly more attacks than you do (depending on whether or not you try the handaxe trick); you're not closing the distance on him because you're busy throwing things instead of Dashing; he can play tricks with partial cover and you can't (because he's a Sharpshooter).

I fully agree that carrying a longbow is something any sane fighter should do, no matter what his Dex is. (Even Flinds do it and they've only got Dex 10.) It vastly improves your tactical options to have a ranged capability.

You and I seem to play at very different tables. I have never seen kiting happen (in any of the groups I have played with), and it has never been because of a contrived scenario (except for one time). Most of the time, kiting doesn't happen because it would interfere with the goals of the group or the NPCs: guard a specific location, capture a specific target, etc. Kiting simply would not have fullfilled the goals of the ranged attackers, so they didn't kite. Other times, kiting didn't happen due to group synergy. No point to kite if you have melee based characters fullfilling their role on the front line (thus keeping the ranged characters out of melee combat anyway). Different playstyles I guess.

I suspect the group synergy is the bigger factor. Kiting only really works if everyone does it, which means you either need a very tactically-aware party, or you need the kiter to be somehow separated from the party (e.g. an advance scout, or someone fighting one monster while the rest of the PCs are busy with a different threat elsewhere). Kiting doesn't scale up to large group sizes unless the groups are perfectly-coordinated.

"Guard a particular location" is actually an ideal scenario for ranged combatants, though not for kiting, because you can create distance with obstacles and fortifications instead of kiting. Caltrops, pits, bastions with partial cover, etc. My hobgoblins habitually fortify their encampments every night, like Roman soldiers. (They're actually kind of a cross between Romans and Mongol horse-archers, and yes, when they're not in their forts they kite the good guys from horseback.)
 

My hobgoblins habitually fortify their encampments every night, like Roman soldiers. (They're actually kind of a cross between Romans and Mongol horse-archers, and yes, when they're not in their forts they kite the good guys from horseback.)
In my 4e game, most combats take place at ranges where melee (with a bit of movement buff - the fighter has an ability that allows him to close quickly) is viable. But there has been the odd ranged-only combat, including when (around 5th level or so) the PCs were on horseback crossing a grassland and took out a group of hobgoblins on foot, by shooting as the hobgoblins closed, then falling back - or, conversely, by using their greater speed to close on the hobgoblins if the latter tried to retreat.

The player who led this tactical victory characterised the manoeuvring as Parthian shots.
 

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