D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

For the sake of simplicity (as I am not willing to take the time required for a more complete analysis right now), let's pit the two characters against each other.
Sorry to interrupt but this analysis lacks any value. And I have to note how you evidently took the time required for a pretty longwinded analysis after all.

So why spend all that time on a situation that never ever happens.

Secondly, all you've managed to "prove" is that the glaive wielder stands his ground when range is no factor, and when the foe is formidable enough that -5/+10 can't be used reliably. Whohoo, who would have thought!

The reality is of course that it is complete nonsense to pit two PC builds at each other. That simply is not even remotedly close to actual play and actual performance.

To be of any interest whatsoever, how about you team up Mr Glaive with Mrs Crossbow against some monsters, and look at their DPR there?

Hint: note how the DPR of both characters increase markedly by gaining advantage on the monsters, and how this specifically means that Mrs Crossbow will catch up to Mr Glaive if not ouytright pass him by!

And when you then factor in the real play risk of not reaching a new opponent once your current ones are killed off, you realize that if Mr Glaive has to waste even a single attack, his DPR plummets well below that of Mrs Crossbow, who - with an effective reach twelve times longer than Mr Glaive's, can be trusted to suffer such wasted attacks much less often.

And this still only involve fights where some foes have closed to melee.

As soon as you allow for heroes to spend even a single round of shooting before the monsters arrive into melee, the DPR winner should be clear as day.
 

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I'm not really implying anything...I'm asking what the Marilith should do in such a situation.

Let's say you're running the Marilith. A group of lesser, winged demons armed with ranged weapons sets upon you for the cruelty you've inflicted upon them over the years. What do you do? No modifications to the Marilith's stat block for this...just as is, what do you have her do?
Keying off Hawkeyefan's post...:

I can't know for sure, but I feel some posters would simply have her cheat, and magically appear in the demons' midst, achieving surprise, and then shish-kebabing them all before they can even act once.

My point isn't that is is wrong or bad. In fact, I hate it when people put the blame on DMs. There's nothing wrong with this style of dming!

My point is that you can't do that and then come here and dismiss complaints that the Marilith stat block is lacking.

You made her great. You did the work we want WotC to do.

Our complain isn't that we can't do what you just did, but that we pretty much have to, since WotC didn't do their homework.
 

You misunderstand. Javelins are rate-limited by your object interactions. You can no more draw three javelins in a single turn than you can draw three swords. The rules for ammunition prevent this hampering ranged weapons ("Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack") but javelins are thrown weapons, not ammunition.
I realize thrown weapons are effectively addled with their own Loading restriction, and that you'd need the Quick draw feat to throw as many darts|javelins|dead kobolds at your foes as you wish.

But let me confess I wouldn't dream of ever enforcing this rule - thrown weapons suck hard enough as it is.
 

You and I seem to play at very different tables. I have never seen kiting happen (in any of the groups I have played with), and it has never been because of a contrived scenario (except for one time). Most of the time, kiting doesn't happen because it would interfere with the goals of the group or the NPCs: guard a specific location, capture a specific target, etc. Kiting simply would not have fullfilled the goals of the ranged attackers, so they didn't kite. Other times, kiting didn't happen due to group synergy. No point to kite if you have melee based characters fullfilling their role on the front line (thus keeping the ranged characters out of melee combat anyway). Different playstyles I guess.
Thank you for finally dialing back your claims to include "depending on playstyle". It's greatly appreciated Cyber-dave and not all forumists are prepared to do what you just did. Kudos! :)
 


Archers can still make opportunity attacks. By RAW, due to the wording of archery fighting style, they can use their crossbow as an improvised weapon but still gain the +2 bonus to hit because it is a ranged weapon.
Sorry but I believe opportunity attacks are defined as melee attacks.
 

So, I am interested to know if its still the case that ranged beats melee when we remove feats. So no ranged attacks in melee (though a couple of rogue levels solves the problem typically), more problems with cover, no bonus action attacks, no damage increases vs typical ACs.

Is the inherent problem a ranged vs melee problem, a str vs dex problem or an unbalanced feat problem. I'm leaning towards the latter to be honest.
 

Basically archers can do everything a melee focused warrior can about as well as the melee warrior, but with the added benefit of being able to perform incredibly well at range.

IMHO, the way the game is designed, the ranged warrior shouldn't even be close to the damage of the melee warrior. If the ranged warrior was truly squishy or truly pathetic in melee combat I might understand them having similar damage. But that simply isn't the case. Fighting styles and feats complete negate any potential penalties the ranged warrior might face.
This harkens back to the entire fundament of the fantasy genre.

First off: D&D uses hit points. In real-life even a single attack that hits can cripple you, so the basic (but almost forgotten) function of hit points is to make sure you don't go down by a single hit, since this is an absolute requirement for a game that asks players to make melee builds.

But that is not enough. You need more game mechanics to favor melee for melee to actually be the logical choice (and not just the fun choice, the colorful choice etc).

I believe that melee warriors should have 10-20% more effective HP and 10-20% more damage than an a ranged warrior given the difficulty most melee warriors face in combat (flying enemies, opportunity attacks, being knocked prone, enemies at range greater than 30ft, enemies spread out more than 30 ft, choice targets in the back ranks, etc). Instead, archers tend to deal more damage and have similar defenses.
This is why some games make it difficult for an archer to wear heavy armor.

I don't think a mere 20% delta is enough. At high levels, that means that if ranged combat do 50 DPR, melee combat should do 60 DPR. Assuming this figure doesn't take range into account, I believe it is not enough. Remember, every time the melee fighter can't reach a new foe, his DPR drops precipitously.

I'm afraid that to truly relegate ranged combat to a secondary function, and to do so purely by regulating damage, the melee build probably needs to do DOUBLE damage of ranged.

But that's probably not a good solution. Or more accurately, it's an extreme solution that's really not needed.

Because you have other parameters to play with. Just by disabling ranged fire when in melee you go a long way of decreasing the attractiveness of the "ranged only" build.

---

In the end I should say:
* remove the ability to negate the disadvantage for shooting when within 5 ft from an enemy completely from the game, so there is no way to get around that penalty
* revert the decision to allow ranged combatants to add dexterity to damage.

I would probably skip 3rd edition's rule and go straight to a rule where you always add strength to damage, no matter what weapon you're using (since that is what 3E's "compound" bows led to in the end after all). I would still allow Finesse weapons to supersede this rule and add Dex damage - I'm not trying to hose the swashbucker, just to put a check on actual ranged builds.

And you're done.

Do note how this involves absolutely no homecooked untested rules. My suggestion just removes one ill-conceived feat ability, and then reverting to a tried and tested D&D tradition that has worked well for decades! :)
 


So, I am interested to know if its still the case that ranged beats melee when we remove feats. So no ranged attacks in melee (though a couple of rogue levels solves the problem typically), more problems with cover, no bonus action attacks, no damage increases vs typical ACs.

Is the inherent problem a ranged vs melee problem, a str vs dex problem or an unbalanced feat problem. I'm leaning towards the latter to be honest.
Three things:

1) Without feats, you can't add +10 to damage.

1d12+5 is significantly better than 1d6+5 in a way that 1d12+15 is not compared to 1d6+15.

2) Without feats, you can't get rid of disadvantage when you try to do archery adjacent to a monster. Being forced to switch weapons or (worse) taking an OA to step out of reach is a definite drawback to the ranged build.

3) Without feats, you can't gain what's effectively a supercharged version of dualwielding as a ranged character. (Meaning that Crossbow Expert allows you to use your bonus action to shoot one more time, adding your full Dex to damage, something you'd otherwise need two-weapon fighting style to pull off). Not being given a reliable way to convert your bonus action into more damage is a definite drawback.

Taking these three things into account I'd say that without feats, pretty much the entire complaint goes away, at least from where I see it.
 

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