D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

[FormerlyHemlock]

It's better than driving the DM from the table, then there is no game.

...If you forced me to choose between "run a fiat-driven combat-heavy Combat As Sport game per Flamestrike's advice" and "do something that isn't 5E", I would choose the latter in a heartbeat. I'm not going to run the kind of game I hate playing. That's just a waste of everyone's time. What else constitutes "drive a DM from the table" but that?

Except that in real life of course I can just run a game that I would actually enjoy running, and that I feel like my players will enjoy playing.

 

[smbakeresq]

...If you forced me to choose between "run a fiat-driven combat-heavy Combat As Sport game per Flamestrike's advice" and "do something that isn't 5E", I would choose the latter in a heartbeat. I'm not going to run the kind of game I hate playing. That's just a waste of everyone's time. What else constitutes "drive a DM from the table" but that?

Except that in real life of course I can just run a game that I would actually enjoy running, and that I feel like my players will enjoy playing.

As a DM 5e is exactly what you say it is, nothing more or less. It is meant, as previous editions, an interactive rule set between players and DM.


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[mpwylie]

This is pretty condescending.

And there are RPGs where big bruiser creatures play fine as big bruisers when "plopped own" in the middle of a room. I know, because I've played them!

Really? First, you said "room" so let's clarify, The the scenario in question isn't a room so much as a vast open area. "White room" as in featureless area, not a 30x30 "room". The complaint stems from monsters at range being destroyed by ranged characters. What game can you drop a level appropriate random solo monster at range in a area with no terrain against a party with ranged characters that will be challenging? Oh and not just a party with ranged characters, but ranged characters that you have given items that allow them to bypass the resistance or DR of monsters. I am not talking about a specific monster, but an average monster for that game, dropped in an open area at range, that is not specialized to deal directly with that situation? Cause that is the complaint, that his ranged characters scout and find things at range and kill them(or trivialize them) before the melee get to do much.

So what I am saying is, there are no rules that can be altered that are going to make that encounter design successful. You can add monsters, you can select specific casters that have helpful spells for the situation and play them intelligently, you can add terrain for cover and play the monsters intelligently, you can alter the monster specifically for that encounter, you can use a monster that is significantly higher level than the party, or last but not least, you can design your encounters in such a way that they start in melee range, but what he is doing is not working, nor will it ever work no matter how much he wants it to be the game designers fault.

 

[Darkness]

How sad. This time of the year ought to be fun, but this poor little thread doesn't seem to be getting any of it. Instead, there's all this rudeness and snark.

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[CapnZapp]

I don't want to single out any one of the replies saying this so no direct quote, but

"meat shields is easy, a ranged fighter can just switch to melee"

I need to ask y'all why I read this over and over again. I think I have said it many times, but all the thinking archers are squishy is outdated in 5e.

A character does not need to switch to melee.

Just keep firing crossbow bolts completely unhindered regardless of whether the monsters are 100 ft away, or if they surround you completely.

No squishyness. No need to switch to melee. No drawbacks, penalties. Completely unhindered steady stream of bolts.

Sure, to me this is a Flaw that needs to be fixed. But the first step towards recovery is insight.

As long as you think of how ranged combat worked in previous editions you can't see the problems with how it really works in 5e (assuming feats).

 

[pemerton]

I can tell many of you don't DM. You don't get how much time you put in away from the table to get ready; at least 1-2 hours for each hour at table just so things run smooth for your players.

I've been GMing pretty steadily for a bit over 30 years. If you Google "ENworld pemerton session report" or "ENworld pemerton actual play" you'll see links to some of my actual play posts on these boards.

I don't keep a log of how much time I spend in prep, but if I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't do it.

If a player or group is going to power game you, you power game him back.

<snip>

It's your story told through interaction with the players

The way I RPG, it's not my story. The story is the outcome of everyone playing the game. It's not preauthored, nor authored in the moment, by me.

As far as powergaming is concerned: if the rules of the game can't handle the players and the GM pushing things hard, that's a problem with the rules. It's not a sign that anyone is a bad player.

 

[pemerton]

What game can you drop a level appropriate random solo monster at range in a area with no terrain against a party with ranged characters that will be challenging? Oh and not just a party with ranged characters, but ranged characters that you have given items that allow them to bypass the resistance or DR of monsters. I am not talking about a specific monster, but an average monster for that game, dropped in an open area at range, that is not specialized to deal directly with that situation? Cause that is the complaint

Two systems where this won't cause an issue are 4e and Marvel Heroic RP. (I guess if the monster is "utterly" random - eg has equal chances of being a slow-moving melee-only bruiser as one with a bit of mobility - but I was replying to "brainless sack of hit points", not "random solo monster".)

4e, this is what happened when the PCs were attacked by a black dragon around 4th level. They took a few ranged shots as it closed, but once it got into melee with them (they were holding their position because it had cover) it was a challenging fight.

The hydra across an underground river would be another example - that was around 18th level. This scenario involved terrain, but the terrain was not cover for the hydra - it was terrain (river, lava, etc) that made it hard for the players to close with the creature.

Marvel Heroic: the mechanics are very different from D&D and similar games; but it would have no trouble with this scenario. When Titanium Man closed in on my group, War Machine engaged him while the other PCs entered the Smithsonian, and Titanium Man ended up winning the firefight between the two, sending War Machine falling to earth over Florida while Titanium Man escaped to his secret base in Khazakstan.

The issues being discussed in this thread are results of distinctive features of 5e design: its action economy (eg rate at which archers can shoot vs distance at which they can shoot vs rate at which creatures can close) and its monster design (eg many melee-only creatures). Other systems have different action economies (even radically different, as in MHRP) and/or different approaches to NPC/monster design (eg 4e).

 

[Ashkelon]

I'm very confused why the designers of 5e changed core gaming tenants that worked to counter ranged superiority in previous editions.

The removal of the charge action, the removal of opportunity attacks vs spells and ranged attacks, the ability for archers to be just as tanky as melee bruisers, the ability to counteract all penalties for distance and cover by taking a single feat, and the archery fighting style synergizing extremely well with the -5 / +10 feats are just some of the examples changes that promote ranged superiority.

 

[seebs]

The amount of prep time you need varies widely with party, GM, and everything else. I can run a pretty fun game given five minutes and scratch paper for prep.

 

[Rhenny]

It's funny how making ranged weapons work a little better makes the game much more realistic. Now, if 10 bowmen fire on one PC, it can be devastating, so bad guys can actually threaten PCs by aiming multiple ranged weapons at them.

I'm not one to argue that my fantasy game needs to be realistic, but it is in some ways refreshing to play in a game were avoiding missile fire is a concern. Also, what's good for the PCs is also good for the foes, and anytime PCs or foes find themselves in a "kill zone" without cover, they probably should be threatened.

Favoring ranged over melee and visa versa is a matter of preference, neither good nor bad for the game.