D&D 5E (2014) How Would this Surprise Example Play Out?

[MerricB]

Incidentally, in the Lost Mine of Phandelver, page 7. The first combat against goblins instructs you to make one Stealth check for the entire gang of goblins.

Cheers!

 

[Uller]

I dont have the rules handy but isn't there a rule for making individual checks that says if half or more succeed then the target is surprised? Maybe I dreamed that.

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[Lidgar]

I dont have the rules handy but isn't there a rule for making individual checks that says if half or more succeed then the target is surprised? Maybe I dreamed that.

I think it was a dream.

The rules for surprise are pretty brief and uncomplicated:

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

As others have pointed out, many DM's simply roll one stealth check for a group of monsters/opponents vs individual ones.

In any case, if a creature notices a threat (any threat, it does not have to notice every opponent), that creature is not surprised. However, a creature that fails to perceive any threat would be surprised.

So you could have a case where a party has three characters, A, B and C. Each have different passive perception scores:
A = 10
B = 12
C = 14

The DM rolls a stealth check for a group of bandits that are trying to ambush the party, X, Y and Z, rolling once for the whole group, and gets a result of 12. In this case, characters B and C are not surprised, while character A is surprised, and is unable to take an action on its first turn of the combat, and it can’t take a reaction until its turn ends.

Alternatively, the DM could roll for the individual bandits, getting:
X = 11
Y = 12
Z = 13
In this case, character A is still surprised while B and C are not (both perceive at least one threat). However, character B fails to notice one of the bandits (bandit Z), and that bandit is considered hidden from her.

 

[DM Magic]

Some really good explanations in this thread! I think I've been able to wrap my mind around it now.

 

[guachi]

They are good explanations.

The key is to separate "surprised" from "hidden".

 

[Arial Black]

If I walk into my living room and notice that one of my brothers is hidden behind a couch, couldn't I still be surprised by the other brother hidden behind the other couch, who I didn't notice? Why would one brother automatically make the other brother known?

I'll explain in another way.

In 5E, 'surprise' is a game mechanic. It doesn't mean 'astonished' or 'I did not see you'; it just means that you cannot move or act on your first turn, and cannot take reactions until your first turn is over.

Let's take your example. In the living room, brother A is hiding behind the couch, but he's got a big butt so you notice him as soon as you walk into the room, and can hear him trying to stifle his guffaws.

Meanwhile, brother B is hiding in the suspiciously large and empty picnic basket(!) and you fail to notice him.

So, as you imagine it, you are not 'surprised by' brother A (you'd think you'd've learned their names by now!) but you are 'surprised by' brother B.

How would that work? If you are 'surprised' then you cannot move or act on your first turn. Since you are surprised by B but not surprised by A, when your turn comes up, can you act? Or not?

If you act, then that's wrong because you are 'surprised by' B. But if you are not allowed to act because 'surprise', what is preventing you acting against brother A that you've seen?

Simply put, 'surprise' is not something that a creature 'does' to you! Instead, 'surprise' is a state that you are either in or not in. It is binary; you are 'surprised' OR not 'surprised'. It is not possible to be both at once.

Now, being aware of an individual creature does depend on each creature. If brother A jumps up and shouts, "BOO!" then you'd punch him in the face before he got to the second 'O'. But if brother B jumps out, you're going to need another change of pants; he's got advantage against you because you didn't see him, and although you are ready for trouble and can take reactions before your first turn, some reactions require you to be able to see your attacker, and those won't work against hidden brother B.

Does that make sense?

 

[DM Magic]

[MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION], your response was fantastic. Thanks very much!

So how are DMs handling ambushes? Are most DMs rolling one Dexterity (Stealth) for a group of monsters trying to hide? Or are they rolling individually? I could see rolling individually for giant badgers hiding, but rolling once for a group of goblins who have orchestrated their ambush.

 

[jaelis]

[MENTION=6799649]
So how are DMs handling ambushes? Are most DMs rolling one Dexterity (Stealth) for a group of monsters trying to hide? Or are they rolling individually? I could see rolling individually for giant badgers hiding, but rolling once for a group of goblins who have orchestrated their ambush.

I would normally set the DC ahead of time for the encounter in a prepared ambush scenario. For an impromptu encounter I'd probably just roll once.

 

[dco]

So how are DMs handling ambushes? Are most DMs rolling one Dexterity (Stealth) for a group of monsters trying to hide? Or are they rolling individually? I could see rolling individually for giant badgers hiding, but rolling once for a group of goblins who have orchestrated their ambush.

You only need to know the lowest Stealth, I roll once for a group and consider that the worst roll to save time, but you can always roll for each creature or subdivide the enemies in different groups to roll more dice but less than per individual.
Another option is to choose an average, 10+bonuses, like passive checks, and as the DM you can always make them have the Stealth you want.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So how are DMs handling ambushes? Are most DMs rolling one Dexterity (Stealth) for a group of monsters trying to hide? Or are they rolling individually? I could see rolling individually for giant badgers hiding, but rolling once for a group of goblins who have orchestrated their ambush.

In the game I ran, a dagger of warning was the first magic item that the party found, and thereafter I didn't bother rolling Stealth checks.

Thirteen levels later, the group tried to sneak up on a Titan, and they each made individual checks. The paladin rolled low, since she was at -1 and had disadvantage, so the Titan was not surprised.