D&D 5E How Would this Surprise Example Play Out?

[Flamestrike]

There are five goblins. Each of them roll Stealth checks: 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. There are five PCs. Between them, they have passive Perceptions of 10 and 11. I see this going one of two ways:

1) The four goblins who rolled 11 and under on their Stealth checks are seen but the one who rolled 12 isn't; he has surprise and is the only person who can go in Round 1. Or:

2) None of the goblins get surprise since four out of five are seen, though the one that rolled 12 is hidden and will get Advantage as normal.

The player characters are not surprised on round one. They noticed at least one of the goblins.

Roll initiative as normal. Take turns in order. Some of the goblins are hidden, so they can't be targeted by the player characters who probably don't even know there there. When those goblins turns come up in the order they can attack from hiding with advantage.

 

[DM Magic]

It sounds like the consensus is that a group of monsters, no matter how they are placed or how well they roll, if one of them is noticed, they're all noticed, and a surprise round is not triggered. (Though some may remain hidden if they rolled a high enough Stealth, giving advantage on their attack).

Given the above, a surprise round generally seems unlikely if there are more than one or two monsters due to the chance of at least one being seen.

 

[Satyrn]

It sounds like the consensus is that a group of monsters, no matter how they are placed or how well they roll, if one of them is noticed, they're all noticed, and a surprise round is not triggered. (Though some may remain hidden if they rolled a high enough Stealth, giving advantage on their attack).

Given the above, a surprise round generally seems unlikely if there are more than one or two monsters due to the chance of at least one being seen.

Then don't roll lindivudal checks for the goblins. That indicates a lack of coordination.

Rather, have the goblin leader concoct an ambush, arranging his squad and the environment as he can, and roll a check to see how well he carries it off. One check for the group, justified (in my mind) by my narrative excuse.

For bonus points, I'd make that an Intelligence (Stealth) to indicate that it's the tactical process of setting up the ambush that matters more than the individual goblins staying hidden.

 

[Lidgar]

There a difference between being surprised and not noticing a creature. Surprise is a condition that affects the surprised creature, while being hidden grants certain advantages to the hidden creature.

 

[DM Magic]

Then don't roll lindivudal checks for the goblins. That indicates a lack of coordination.

Rather, have the goblin leader concoct an ambush, arranging his squad and the environment as he can, and roll a check to see how well he carries it off. One check for the group, justified (in my mind) by my narrative excuse.

For bonus points, I'd make that an Intelligence (Stealth) to indicate that it's the tactical process of setting up the ambush that matters more than the individual goblins staying hidden.

This is an interesting method. I wonder if it would fly for Adventurers League.

 

[DM Magic]

There a difference between being surprised and not noticing a creature. Surprise is a condition that affects the surprised creature, while being hidden grants certain advantages to the hidden creature.

If I walk into my living room and notice that one of my brothers is hidden behind a couch, couldn't I still be surprised by the other brother hidden behind the other couch, who I didn't notice? Why would one brother automatically make the other brother known?

 

[TarionzCousin]

Why would one brother automatically make the other brother known?

Because brothers are dumb that way.

 

[corwyn77]

If I walk into my living room and notice that one of my brothers is hidden behind a couch, couldn't I still be surprised by the other brother hidden behind the other couch, who I didn't notice? Why would one brother automatically make the other brother known?

It doesn't. Assuming your brothers mean you some kind of "harm", you are still unaware of your second brother (though since you know them, you may assume that he's around here somewhere) but you are not surprised (unable to act) because you are aware of an opponent that you may react to. I don't believe anyone has said that you are suddenly aware of the other opponents who successfully hid from you.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If I walk into my living room and notice that one of my brothers is hidden behind a couch, couldn't I still be surprised by the other brother hidden behind the other couch, who I didn't notice? Why would one brother automatically make the other brother known?

Upon spotting the first enemy, you are instantly alerted to the fact that there is danger happening, so you will look in all directions to make sure that nobody sneaks up behind you in combat. Looking around you doesn't require an action of any sort, so they just assume everyone does it all the time once you're in combat. If the game rules didn't make it an automatic assumption whenever someone was in combat, it would force the players to constantly declare that they're looking around, and that would bog down gameplay.

Paying attention to your surroundings is a binary state. You are either constantly checking every direction for threats (in combat), or you are just looking in front of you and only passively listening to what's going on (out of combat). If you're actively checking every direction for threats, nobody can sneak up behind you, which is why the game rules say that you can only hide if you have cover. If you are only looking in front of you, then it's possible for someone to sneak up behind you simply by being quiet; that's where DM discretion applies outside of combat - in determining whether the enemy is looking in your direction (and thus stealth is impossible), or looking away (in which case stealth is possible).

If you spot one enemy, and you don't know that another enemy is nearby, you won't automatically see them if they are hiding behind something. But they won't be able to surprise you, since you are paying attention to the possibility of enemies nearby; and they won't be able to sneak up behind you, since you will see them coming as soon as they leave cover.

 

[BoldItalic]

In 5e,

• There is no such thing as a surprise round
• There is no such thing as "gaining" surprise
• Creatures may be surprised.

In the OP's example, none of the PCs is surprised because they are all aware of the presence of enemies. If the goblins had collectively rolled higher on Stealth, it might have been a different story.

As people have pointed out, some of the goblins may be able to attack some of the PCs while unseen, thus gaining advantage, but that is not related to surprise. Attacking a creature that has been surprised does not, in itself, grant advantage to the attacker.