D&D 5E Fairy tale logic vs naturalism in fantasy RPGing

Aenghus

Explorer
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Fairy tales are stories, like anything else. They have protagonists who do things.

If you mean the protagonists in fairy tales are not active, I don't agree. Jack is pretty active in the tale of the beanstalk (trades the cow for the beans, sows the beans, climbs the stalk, steals the gold/goose, kills/runs from the giant, cuts down the beanstalk).

Hansel and Gretel are fairly active also (save breadcrumbs, make a trail, eat from the house, trick the witch about the thinnes of Hansel, shove the witch into the oven, persuade the swan to carry them across the lake, live happily ever after with their money).

And if we turn from fairy tales in the literal sense, to RPGing, I don't see how "You ride for twenty days and come to a castle" is more railroading than "You ride for twenty days and come to the elves tilling their fields."

So, as I said, I'm not really sure what you mean.

I think the problem may be conflating "Fairy tale logic" with "placing the players in a particular fairy tale". If a situation is presented where PCs are placed in the roles of famous fairy tale characters, at least some players will feel constrained to recreate the familiar story "correctly" and at least some DMs will be tempted to railroad the players into the familiar narrative, in a mutable fairy tale setting where shifting scenery facilitates such railroading (from some perspectives).

If you mean "Fairy tale logic" and an entirely original situation with no obligation to be recognisable as a recreation of a particular story or narrative, it's different from the PCs visiting Wonderland, or Cinderella, which is a particular story.

When Little Red Riding Hood sees that grandma has big teeth, that is information she can use. When the woodsman tracks the wolf to Grandma's house, he can (as he does!) come in and kill it.

There are consequences for actions in Little Red Riding Hood - by disobeying her mother, Little Red Riding Hood takes a risk! By cutting open the wolf, the woodsman is able to rescue the swallowed victims. (This is a pretty standard D&D trope.)

And back to confusion. PCs who get "cast" as particular familiar characters can definitely be subject to railroading by "fairy tale logic". PCs finding out they can't leave a location till a narrative is resolved is railroading, right?

In the game that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] ran, my Knight Commander of the Iron Tower was able to heal the injured and rouse the frightened by speaking words of prayer and encouragement.

Just because consequences don't have a naturalistic causal logic doesn't mean that players can't engage with them, by activatig the game's mechanics.

This is what I meant by my reference to "handles", sorry if I was obscure. Players need to know how they can affect the gameworld, and be willing to use the presented mechanics. Possibly I've been burned often enough by old-school dming to automatically associate "fairy tale logic" with "none of your standard mechanics work".

The second bit - plus the fact that adjudication, even when it doesn't depend upon secret backstory, will still depend upon a GM's interpretation and application of naturalistic causal logic - tends (in my view) to somewhat negate the first bit.

Elaborating on my reply to Aenghus, I don't think these are very similar. D&D, and many other RPGs that emulate its approach to action resolution pretty closely, give the players a very clear range of options for responding to "a goblin approaches". There are rules for reactions (with CHA mods and/or Diplomacy-type skills); rules for closing the distance or running away; rules for shooting it with arrows; etc.

But (outside of 4e's skill challenges) there aren't rules for scoping out or setting fire to a field.

Well obviously if the GM just says yes to every player action declaration then there won't be any issues - but that will be the case in any situation. Naturalism doesn't make it more likely.

The more peculiar and non-naturalistic the setting the harder it can be to get a handle on, IMO. I do think at an atomic procedural level it's easier to take small steps in a naturalistic setting, but conversely there's no guarantee that those steps will even lead to the desired goal, let alone achieve it.

<snip>
I remember in a tournament game years ago when our PCs were trapped in a space-base with a fire, and we started planning actions on the assumption that we had at least minutes to go before our oxygen supplies were threatened, and the GM had us asphyxiating within seconds. The GM thought he was reasoning naturalistically, not by fiat - but the chemical engineer in our group didn't agree!

Whereas in a "fairy tale logic game" there may be no oxygen as the world doesn't work on science, and reaching for naturalistic explanations can fail. This can bother some players, I certainly have been tripped up before in RPGs in similar situations.

I hoped it was clear in my OP what I think those handles are - the game rules and game premise. For instance, AD&D players know that trolls wait in their dens because they've read pp 107-9 of the PHB.

I don't really agree with this either. You seem to be assuming that the fairy tale devices will be deployed by the GM. But in my OP, and in the post you quoted, I hoped I'd made it clear that - in the context of RPGing - the fairy tale logic is what underpins otherwise "unrealistic" scene-framing and resolution.

In various media and stories, when protagonists stumble into fairy tales, they are often heavily railroaded so the story works out as intended.

I feel you are skipping a step, that in your particular usage the fairy tale logic is constrained to allow player agency via the mechanics and excludes the stuff I'm concerned about. Hidden assumptions can be just as deadly as hidden backstory.
 
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steenan

Adventurer
To me it seems to be the opposite of this.

Naturalism shifts much more control to the GM. Eg with your "burn the fields" example, mostly this will be subject almost entirely to GM fiat (in terms of setting checks required, DCs required, determining consequences, etc) - unless you're using something like the 4e skill challenge structure to resolve it.

Whereas fairy tale logic is what allows the trolls to still be in the same place when the PCs come back to loot them; or allows a thief to get lucky and surive a 50' fall or not be seen hiding in the corner of the giant's hall. Because, as [MENTION=22260]TerraDave[/MENTION] put it, "things are what they are and do what they do. There is little overt motivation or exposition," there is no need to worry that the GM's framing, or the outcomes of the players' action resolution, is somehow "unrealistic" or lackingin verisimilitude/causal logic.

On the other hand, a world that runs on "realistic" logic makes it easier for players to make predictions and exploit the way the setting works. While it's possible in fairy-tale logic too, the world behaving like our one (plus magic, monsters etc. and their implications) allows players to use scientific reasoning within the game, and that gives them a powerful tool.

I played in a campaign with very "Magic A is magic A" approach (Brandon Sanderson's term for fantastic elements that follow strict rules and may be approached scientifically). At some point within the campaign one of the players used a trick that was completely unexpected for our GM and gave the player a lot of new abilities - but it was done by exploiting the in-setting laws (as opposed to exploiting of game). This wouldn't be possible with more nebulous approach to how the setting works.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
All characters in fiction are "along for the ride" - I don't see what makes you think Little Red Riding Hood is in a special category.
It's mostly a question of the logic used to drive action. You compare Red's actions with, say, the actions of Christopher McCandless. Red's a character without much agency in her fairy tale, so maybe Jack is a more useful point of analogy.

As Jack, with fairy tale logic, I can't create a giant beanstalk farm or feed my family on giant beans. I can't plant one magic bean and sell the rest to the highest bidder. I can't sell tickets to see the World's Biggest Beanstalk. This is fairy tale logic, so I am expected to act in accordance with the story's goals. The meta-textual awareness of what is "supposed" to happen is driving my actions. We're telling a story about an impetuous young lad and his travel through the magical world, not about how Jack's family never went hungry again because they ate giant beans the rest of their lives. If I defy the intended narrative, I'm ruining the mood (and the DM probably says the beanstalk never sprouts because it's a damn magic beanstalk and stop trying to wreck my adventure). Wonder and enchantment and, well, you can't use that information. That'd wreck the wonder and enchantment of it.

So as Jack, playing with fairy-tale logic, I should act first and foremost in accordance with my knowledge about what this story is supposed to be about, and all other concerns are secondary, including whether or not giant beanstalks and flying castles in the clouds "make sense."

As Jack, with naturalistic logic, I'm freer to determine what the story is about myself, in play, because the world reacts in plausible ways to my interaction with it. I'm an impetuous young lad in a magical world, sure (the giant beanstalk is a supernatural thing!), but I don't need to worry about the meaning of my actions in a narrative. There's no metatextual goal here, only the goals that are internal to my character and how I, as a player, go about realizing them given the props at my disposal. This is naturalistic logic, so how my character reacts to the giant beanstalk isn't expected. It's an interactive object. I react to it however I want. Maybe I climb it. Maybe I try and grow a whole field of 'em. Maybe I go looking for the wandering old man to interrogate him with my fists about why he gave me these magic beans. These are all valid options for moving forward and all of them create very different stories. There's nothing I can do that ruins the mood because the mood isn't a goal set out at the beginning of play, it's something that emerges over the course of play. There's no adventure to wreck, just a bunch of levers to pull. Because the natural world isn't inherently strongly narrative, naturalistic logic cares first and foremost about nouns and verbs and only later about how those nouns and verbs combine to make a feeling. Which is the weakness of naturalistic logic - it's not likely to result in wonder and awe and a "magical" world, by itself. Any magic sufficiently normalized so as to be indistinct from the world's logic is just an object.

So as Jack, acting with naturalistic logic, I should ask myself "how do I pursue my goals with the objects around me?" Making sense is important for that - I need to be able to reasonably guess that these giant beanstalks might produce some sort of bean and that maybe there is a market for such beans before I try and become Jack the Giant Bean Merchant. So if the beanstalk develops pods that give birth to human babies instead of giant beans, well...that's information I can put to use in some way! (Maybe that mysterious old man was a Beanspawn...can I find a druid? Don't they talk to plants?)
When Little Red Riding Hood sees that grandma has big teeth, that is information she can use. When the woodsman tracks the wolf to Grandma's house, he can (as he does!) come in and kill it.

There are consequences for actions in Little Red Riding Hood - by disobeying her mother, Little Red Riding Hood takes a risk! By cutting open the wolf, the woodsman is able to rescue the swallowed victims. (This is a pretty standard D&D trope.)

In the game that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] ran, my Knight Commander of the Iron Tower was able to heal the injured and rouse the frightened by speaking words of prayer and encouragement.

Just because consequences don't have a naturalistic causal logic doesn't mean that players can't engage with them, by activatig the game's mechanics.

It does mean it's not information you can use in other contexts. You can heal the wounded with prayer and encouragement, but can you do that all the time, or just in this particular instance? Is that information you can use to then bring the Army of the Iron Tower up against some other army in the world and defeat them because you have this magical divine healing ability and most other people don't? Or do all commanders in this world magically heal their troops with words of prayer and encouragement? Can you restore sight to someone whose eyes have been plucked out? Can you regrow limbs?

Or does none of that matter because those options are not even really on the table for your character, because your logic isn't really naturalistic?

When Jack's thinking about the world naturalistically, he's thinking that this giant beanstalk probably works like other beanstalks, more or less, and that he can use it to do what other beanstalks might do (like produce beans!).

The second bit - plus the fact that adjudication, even when it doesn't depend upon secret backstory, will still depend upon a GM's interpretation and application of naturalistic causal logic - tends (in my view) to somewhat negate the first bit.
The DM makes the interpretation, but the naturalistic and causal logic is shared. The DM and the player both agree that it's reasonable to expect the giant beanstalk to more or less behave like other beanstalks and so it's reasonable for Jack to try to farm its beans and when he farms human infants instead, both agree that this is a surprising result in the naturalistic logic. They don't just say, "Welp, *magic*," since that's not naturalistic logic.

Which is, again, why there's a benefit for both. Sometimes, in D&D, "Welp, *magic" keeps things interesting. :) Too much, though, and you can't rely on a reasonable confidence of what the outcome of your actions will be.


Elaborating on my reply to Aenghus, I don't think these are very similar. D&D, and many other RPGs that emulate its approach to action resolution pretty closely, give the players a very clear range of options for responding to "a goblin approaches". There are rules for reactions (with CHA mods and/or Diplomacy-type skills); rules for closing the distance or running away; rules for shooting it with arrows; etc.

But (outside of 4e's skill challenges) there aren't rules for scoping out or setting fire to a field.
Don't need rules. Naturalistic logic. When thinking with naturalistic logic, burning fields is a thing you can do, just like swingin' a sword is a thing you can do.

Well obviously if the GM just says yes to every player action declaration then there won't be any issues - but that will be the case in any situation. Naturalism doesn't make it more likely.
It does mean that the job of the DM here isn't to decide what is possible, though. Using naturalistic logic, players decide how to use the props at their disposal. The DM's job is interpretive, but under that logic, everyone at the table agrees that these are possible and permissible and viable actions. You realize you, uniquely in the world, can heal the wounded with your prayers so you give up your position as the knight-comamnder and go around healing leprosy because your heroic character is Good. Jack makes a deal with the giant to feed him humans and beanstalking becomes the favored method of execution for criminals in Jack's homeland. Yes, okay, this is all fine.

But as soon as there is adjudication, I think it's a different story. Saying there won't be much in the way of fiat doesn't seem plausible to me. For instance - have you ever started a grassfire? Or tried to put one out? I can answer yes to both questions (the events took place in the same order in which I frame the questions), but I wouldn't be confident in generalising my experience to a wheatfield in what is probalby a less arid environment than where I had my personal experience.

I remember in a tournament game years ago when our PCs were trapped in a space-base with a fire, and we started planning actions on the assumption that we had at least minutes to go before our oxygen supplies were threatened, and the GM had us asphyxiating within seconds. The GM thought he was reasoning naturalistically, not by fiat - but the chemical engineer in our group didn't agree!

But, things will burn. The plants won't cry out in mournful tones. You won't open a portal to the plane of elemental fire or piss off a Dryad. You've got a reasonable expectation about what might happen. This doesn't mean you have precise and exact knowledge, but you don't need it - naturalistic logic informs your plausible possiblity-space.

A D&D character is going to have a different "naturalistic" possibility space (that may very well include dryads and mournful plants), but they still can use the information that the elves have fields to determine their actions.

Compare the handling of the wilderness in Firewatch with the handling of the wilderness in The Long Dark.

In Firewatch, the function of the wilderness is as a narrative device itself, and it invites you to ask what the wilderness means to the story. It's a fairy-tale logic (despite being grounded in a very realistic setting): your interactions with the wilderness are driven primarily by the broader metatextual meaning of those actions and that wilderness.

In The Long Dark, the function of the wilderness is as a stage filled with props. The wilderness has a meaning in the (supernatural) story, but the logic in how one interacts with it is very naturalistic (because that's the play loop).

In the former case, there is a story to be told and your agency is as the secondary protagonist of a story. The latter case, your agency is as a being in that world.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't think either one is more valid or inherently preferable for D&D than the other, and you often need a mix of both in a single campaign, just as JRRT mixed them both in his works.
Nod. Like most "there are two kinds of..." saws (or three kinds in the case of GNS). At its best, combining the two can get you something like the literary genre of "magical realism."

There are dangers, though...

D&D, since it has mechanics, can easily fall into a mostly-'naturalistic' (or deterministic, or simulationist, I suppose) rut that sucks the fantasy/fairy-tale/mythic feel right out of it, elevating the mechanical details of the rules system to a sort of de-facto set of laws of physics that dictate the nature and development of the world and characters.

Mixing the realistic and fantastic can also result in a double-standard in which some game elements are mundane and marginalized while others are miraculous and run the show. In a fantasy game grounded in realism, all the PCs have to be in about the same place in the spectrum. Presumably, if it's heroic fantasy, PC'd be quite a ways over on the fantastic side, with NPCs/victims/window-dressing providing the mundane floor, alternately, if it's gritty with an edge of survival-horror, the fantastic can all be on the side of the threats faced by the PCs.

On the other hand, a world that runs on "realistic" logic makes it easier for players to make predictions and exploit the way the setting works. While it's possible in fairy-tale logic too, the world behaving like our one (plus magic, monsters etc. and their implications) allows players to use scientific reasoning within the game, and that gives them a powerful tool.
A powerful, but perhaps inappropriate tool, that's also potentially very constraining. If a decanter of endless water can be used to flood the world, or a sphere of annihilation to drain the ocean, for instance, you just might decide not to include 'em, or to put constraints on them, making them less fantastic.

It's also easy to forget that scientific reasoning or, perhaps, 'modern' reasoning isn't the only kind of reasoning, and that part of the appeal of fantasy is to call us back to an earlier (whether in terms of earlier in history, or earlier in our lives) mode of reasoning with more room for wonder and emotion.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Nod. Like most "there are two kinds of..." saws (or three kinds in the case of GNS). At its best, combining the two can get you something like the literary genre of "magical realism."

There are dangers, though...

D&D, since it has mechanics, can easily fall into a mostly-'naturalistic' (or deterministic, or simulationist, I suppose) rut that sucks the fantasy/fairy-tale/mythic feel right out of it, elevating the mechanical details of the rules system to a sort of de-facto set of laws of physics that dictate the nature and development of the world and characters.

Yeah, this is a risk. Like genres of music, any commodification encourages over-commodification. You can see D&D grappling with this in how it treats magic items, for instance. 1e "monty haul" era where it wasn't technically within your control but you had a reasonable expectation of lots of +1 swords. 2e "be careful what you wish for era" where it encouraged vagueness and curses. 3e's Christmas Tree, where you could buy items at shops. 4e's Wishlist where your super-specialized magic item was reasonably expected but not in your control. I'm fond of 5e's, "let God sort 'em out!" method as a pro-wonder move.

Mixing the realistic and fantastic can also result in a double-standard in which some game elements are mundane and marginalized while others are miraculous and run the show. In a fantasy game grounded in realism, all the PCs have to be in about the same place in the spectrum. Presumably, if it's heroic fantasy, PC'd be quite a ways over on the fantastic side, with NPCs/victims/window-dressing providing the mundane floor, alternately, if it's gritty with an edge of survival-horror, the fantastic can all be on the side of the threats faced by the PCs.

Yep, this is part of what "martial" characters struggle against. I'm personally pretty OK with 5e coming down on the side of low-level characters being "remarkable mundanes" (compare a 3rd level fighter to the Veteran or the Guard to get some world context) with them getting farther away from mundane as they gain levels.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yep, this is part of what "martial" characters struggle against.
Indeed.
I'm personally pretty OK with 5e coming down on the side of low-level characters being "remarkable mundanes" (compare a 3rd level fighter to the Veteran or the Guard to get some world context) with them getting farther away from mundane as they gain levels.
I don't think there's anything too mundane about a 1st level character able to cast Sleep, nor anything too far from mundane about an 11th level character able to cut down three kobolds in six seconds. Sadly, the mundane/fantastic divide is still more class than level.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think the problem may be conflating "Fairy tale logic" with "placing the players in a particular fairy tale".

<snip[>

If you mean "Fairy tale logic" and an entirely original situation with no obligation to be recognisable as a recreation of a particular story or narrative, it's different from the PCs visiting Wonderland, or Cinderella, which is a particular story.

<snip>

Players need to know how they can affect the gameworld, and be willing to use the presented mechanics. Possibly I've been burned often enough by old-school dming to automatically associate "fairy tale logic" with "none of your standard mechanics work".

<snip>

I feel you are skipping a step, that in your particular usage the fairy tale logic is constrained to allow player agency via the mechanics and excludes the stuff I'm concerned about. Hidden assumptions can be just as deadly as hidden backstory.
In contrasting fairy tale logic with naturalism, I had in mind the examples (and similar examples) that I gave in my OP: trolls who live in their dens with no obvious means of (ecological, economic) support; Enchantresses who live in hidden castles with men-at-arms and luxurious banquest to serve to visiting knights, but (again) no obviouls or "logical" supply of money, food etc; elves whol similarly live in their forest homes singing songs of the elder ages all day.

These sorts of places confront players with the standard tropes and challenges of a FRPG: trolls to kill; Enchantresses to outwit; elves to befriend - but they are not subject to the causal constraints of a naturalistic logic. This means (i) that the players can't engage them via (say) trying to starve them out, or disrupt their supply of food or funds, and that (ii) the GM has neither incentive (arising from verisimilitude) nor power (arising from the behind-the-scenes management of naturalistic causal logic) to change or destabilise the situation due to "off screen" causal considerations that are outside the players' power to control or predict.

Elaborating on (i): the game will feel more like Gawain and the Green Knight and less like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

Elaborating on (ii): I'm assuming that the game has mechanics and everyone knows what they are. In fact, I was assuming D&D mechanics - so the reaction of the trolls or enchantress is determined using the appropriate reaction/Diplomacy/CHA mechanics; an attempt to beat up the trolls is resolved using the combat mechanics; etc.

By "fairy tale logic" I'm not talking about departing from D&D. Part of the premise of my OP is that important elements of D&D design and playability, as well as the fantasy worlds which are typical to D&D play, depend upon what I have called fairy tal logic. Eg dungeoneering breaks down once you introduce "naturalism", because the players can't engage the dungeon (via scouting then raiding) in the way that Gygax advised them to.
 

pemerton

Legend
On the other hand, a world that runs on "realistic" logic makes it easier for players to make predictions and exploit the way the setting works. While it's possible in fairy-tale logic too, the world behaving like our one (plus magic, monsters etc. and their implications) allows players to use scientific reasoning within the game, and that gives them a powerful tool.
Depending heavily on how adjudication and resolution work in that system.

To go back to @I'm A Bananna's example, for instance - in one sense being able to defeat the elves by burning their crops may be a powerful tool, but how does burning the fields get adjudicated in the game? In high level D&D a Firestorm-type spell answers that question, but what if the PCs are low or mid-level and trying to do it with flint, tinder and torches?
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Indeed. I don't think there's anything too mundane about a 1st level character able to cast Sleep, nor anything too far from mundane about an 11th level character able to cut down three kobolds in six seconds. Sadly, the mundane/fantastic divide is still more class than level.

In the setting that 5e D&D captures, Apprentice Wizards are a thing, and they cook and clean for their education according to Volo's, so they're about as mundane as...I dunno...college students. That they can evoke fire with a wave of their hands doesn't save them from being quotidian. That's just what the quotidian looks like in FR, just like the quotidian in Star Trek involves replicators and holo-decks. Magic's just a thing you interact with - it's naturalistic, not the stuff of fairy-tales.
 

pemerton

Legend
The DM makes the interpretation, but the naturalistic and causal logic is shared.

<snip>

When thinking with naturalistic logic, burning fields is a thing you can do, just like swingin' a sword is a thing you can do.
Well, D&D has always had pretty rich rules for swinging swords. It doesn't just rely on everyone's shared sense of how sword fighting works. I'm not sure why burning field would be different.

I mean, have you ever burned a field?
 

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