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D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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pemerton

Legend
She was a demon who convinced the drow to follow her and by being worshiped, became a goddess. See also: Yeengholu, Baphomet, Orcus, and Asmodeus.

Addition, not contradiction.
In which case 4e blue dragon is addition, not subtraction (plenty of coastal areas are arid/desert).

Even 4e Storm Giants are addition, not contradiction (there are evil as well as good Storm Giants).

Or, to put it another way: I doubt the utility of the addition/contradiction contrast, because it can't be deployed until we have some account of what was implicitly excluded by what was expressly stated (eg did describing Storm Giants as CG implicitly exclude them being anything else? I note that in the 3e SRD they are "often" CG, which expressly leaves open other possibilities). And there seems to be little unanimity on this point.

the first Dragon Magazine after 4e came out had an article on warforged. Now, in 2008 WotC KNEW Eberron was going to go down the pipe next year. Hell, they hadn't even finished getting the 3e PHB races and classes covered, but the first thing they did was take warforged and made a place in Nerath for them, and that really cheapened their unique place in Eberron. They did that again and again; retconning Strahd into a Nerath prince, Vistani losing their connection to Ravenloft/the Mists and becoming just pseudo-gypsies, draconians losing their place from DL and becoming yet-another-generic baddie. Each time, it watered down their unique role in there home setting. WotC KNEW they were going for a setting a year, why not wait to do these things properly?
This seems as quixotic to me as [MENTION=6776548]Corpsetaker[/MENTION]'s thread complaining that the 5e modules use FR rather than PoL.

WotC is a commercial publishing house. If they have ideas - like warforged, or Strahd - that are popular among customers, they're going to find ways to sell them! They're not in this for the purity of artistic vision! (Assuming that "purity of artistic vision" even makes sense in the context of D&D lore.)

Of course I think that DnD lore is good

<snip>

I do not see that I should be expected to sit back and passively lap up all the "brilliant" ideas that some work for hire writer has come up with.
This still leaves two things unanswered, though. And I think they're related.

(1) You don't have to lap anything up. If WotC publishes stuff you don't like, you don't buy it/read it. You just stick to the stuff you like

Which suggests to me that you care about the D&D lore beyond your personal use of it in your gaming, or your reading of it. It seems to upset you that WotC publishes a book saying that (say) "FR is XYZ" when that contradicts your preference that FR be ABC.

(2) What is the nature of the goodness that you see/experience in D&D lore? I don't think it's just the goodness of the play experiences that it gives you. (For the sorts of reasons that I say this, see (1) just above.) To me it seems that you're seeing the D&D lore as some whole or totality, which can be damaged/violated by writing new stuff that differs from what has gone before (especially if the new stuff is poor). This is why I asked about you taking it to be a work of art.
 

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pemerton

Legend
There's a LOT of myth out there. Much of it is contradictory. The trolls of TrollHunter are very different than troll dolls and trolls of Germanic myth.
The whole damn point of continuity is so you don't need to explain what a "troll" is every single time one appears.
Explain to whom?

I was talking about new players.

Beyond that, there was a time when all monsters were new. When surprising players with new monsters was considered a standard tactic in the GM arsenal. The idea that gaps between player expectations and the GM's secret lore is a problem rather than a good thing isn't as old as the hobby. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd date its origin to the mid-to-late 80s. I think MotP, in particular, is one published marker of the transition from the lore/story elements serve a gameplay function to the lore/story elements, and their continuity, have a value in themselves. OA is earlier than MotP, and takes the same approach, but it is self-consciously a supplement. Whereas MotP presents itself as dealing with the "core" D&D world. (Whatever excactly that is.)

If the lore is reinvented, it's just as easy to switch to a brand new game as it is to convert.
Is that actually true? 3E changes lore (eg orcs go from LE to CE, just to pick one easy example). Does that make it just as easy to switch from 2nd ed AD&D to Rolemaster as to 3E?

I mean, why not just update the mechanics but keep the old lore?

If both the new edition of D&D and Tunnels & Trolls have the same amount of commonality wth the old edition of D&D, nothing is gained by sticking with D&D.
I think this is just hyperbole. Familiarity with the mechanical tropes of D&D makes it much easier to update from an older to a newer version of D&D, than to change to T&T.

what makes D&D into D&D is the stories and the lore. Because that's unique. Anyone can make a fantasy RPG. Heck, anyone can make a fantasy RPG with the d20 rules that includes owlbears. It's the unique bits of the story of D&D intersecting with the rules that make the tabletop game into D&D.
I don't agree.

The lore of 5e and the lore of OD&D overlap on almost no points. (Chainmail and OD&D still use LotR categories, like the Red Eye and the White Hand, to classify orcish tribes.) Yet there is clearly recognisable continuity from one to the other - in the monster and spell lists; in the class names and functions; in the races available to players; and in the core mechanics (ability scores; to hit vs AC, followed by a damage roll that subtracts from hit points). That's what makes D&D recognisable.
 

Hussar

Legend
She was a demon who convinced the drow to follow her and by being worshiped, became a goddess. See also: Yeengholu, Baphomet, Orcus, and Asmodeus.

Addition, not contradiction.

Sorry. No. You specifically called out GDQ as the source of lore. Lolth as goddess precludes playing that module in later editions since gods can't be killed in 2e. At the very least.

Additionally anyone who completed those modules is now told that their play is non-canon because now not only is Lolth alive but even more powerful than before.

Why are you invalidating the play of hundreds if not thousands of gamers? What gives you the right to tell them that they are wrong? Isn't lore important to you?
 

Hussar

Legend
But, I expect LotR orcs to be largely the same in 2017 as they were in 1987. I expect WoW orcs to be largely the same in 2017 as they were in 1997. I expect D&D orcs to be largely the same in 2027 as they were in 2017.



e.

But they aren't. 5e orcs are very different than 1e orcs. No more sun weakness. Different alignments. Physically very different. Depictions of orcs are pretty far apart between editions.

Same as virtually every other monster in the game. It's easier to list the ones that haven't changed than try to list the ones that have.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sorry. No. You specifically called out GDQ as the source of lore. Lolth as goddess precludes playing that module in later editions since gods can't be killed in 2e. At the very least.

They can be killed in 2e, but only by other gods, except for the FR gods that died at the hands of mortals. Karsus killed one, and Cyric killed Bhaal, and Midnight killed Myrkul.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
My personal take? The chasm of small differences overwhelms us all, and there is still hope that we can hit 10,000 comments. YOU CAN DO IT!
You don't just express hope. You also have to offer up incentive, like...

Okay. Whoever posts the 10,000th post gains the title of Loremaster!
 

Explain to whom?

I was talking about new players.
New players will always need to learn what a D&D troll is like, because there are too many variants of troll in fantasy.
Changing what a troll does not help them in any way, shape, or form. Changing trolls only hinders existing players who need to relearn what a troll is, how to fight it, and the like.
Try doing a Google image search for "troll". What comes up? Picture after picture unrelated to D&D. Even if you try "troll fantasy" or "troll rpg" there's a lot of very non-D&D trolls (which often look a lot more like giants and ogres).

Changing what a troll is would be fun for a campaign setting, for a Dark Sun world that takes D&D and turns everything on its head. It's less appealing from a generic D&D perspective. The DM shouldn't have to invent lore, backstory, and flavour for every monster.

Beyond that, there was a time when all monsters were new. When surprising players with new monsters was considered a standard tactic in the GM arsenal. The idea that gaps between player expectations and the GM's secret lore is a problem rather than a good thing isn't as old as the hobby. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd date its origin to the mid-to-late 80s. I think MotP, in particular, is one published marker of the transition from the lore/story elements serve a gameplay function to the lore/story elements, and their continuity, have a value in themselves. OA is earlier than MotP, and takes the same approach, but it is self-consciously a supplement. Whereas MotP presents itself as dealing with the "core" D&D world. (Whatever excactly that is.)
D&D's lore started immediately. Even in OD&D you had notes like blue dragons living in arid areas and breathing lightning. The lore in OD&D only increased in the later books, with monsters recieving more and more flavour. With AD&D and the Monster Manual, and just grew with Deities & Demigods as things like monstrous and demihuman deities were introduced.

D&D was NEVER a generic fantasy RPG devoid of assumed flavour. It shouldn't start now.

Is that actually true? 3E changes lore (eg orcs go from LE to CE, just to pick one easy example). Does that make it just as easy to switch from 2nd ed AD&D to Rolemaster as to 3E?
The alignment of orcs was changed to fit how they typically were portrayed. How orcs had developed in D&D no longer matched their classical alignment, in any setting. They had evolved. LE was never a particularly good fit for orcs

It was still annoying to many people. The fact that a decade and a half both you and I are aware orc alignment changed is evidence of that.

It's actually a very good example, because continuity shouldn't be impossible to change. It just shouldn't be something done on a whim.
D&D orcs, being LE, they were too different from what people expected orcs to do, based on other fantasy games and Tolkien, which became reflected in the D&D worlds as well. The common knowledge of orcs shifted and D&D orcs followed suit. It was a reaction to a widespread change, to what most people were doing anyway. It wasn't just a couple people on the monster design team going "Hey, orcs should be CE. Let's change them."
Change should be deliberate, not the result of carelessness. And it should be done to reflect a genuine need in the game or in response to the fanbase, not a personal desire.
For game designers writing official material. You can do whatever you want in your game.

I mean, why not just update the mechanics but keep the old lore?
There's not a hard line between lore and mechanics. Your troll is the perfect example of that, as their lore is they regenerate but are vulnerable to fire and acid. If their hook changes, it can affect their mechanics. If the mechanics of trolls drops their regeneration and instead has them turn to stone in sunlight, you can't just keep the old lore.

I think this is just hyperbole. Familiarity with the mechanical tropes of D&D makes it much easier to update from an older to a newer version of D&D, than to change to T&T.
I honestly have never played Tunnels & Trolls, so I have no idea how similar it is. But it's pretty easy to shift from D&D to 13th Age or Shadow of the Demon Lord, because those are kindred games that have a lot of shared heritage.
If D&D stopped being D&D, it'd be easy to go to 13th Age instead for a much more familiar feel than try to make a new version of D&D feel like an old version.
The rise of OSR during 3e and 4e is testament to that. Because, when people found it too hard to tell the D&D stories they wanted to tell with the current D&D rules, they made their own. And likely kept all the lore.

I don't agree.

The lore of 5e and the lore of OD&D overlap on almost no points. (Chainmail and OD&D still use LotR categories, like the Red Eye and the White Hand, to classify orcish tribes.) Yet there is clearly recognisable continuity from one to the other - in the monster and spell lists; in the class names and functions; in the races available to players; and in the core mechanics (ability scores; to hit vs AC, followed by a damage roll that subtracts from hit points). That's what makes D&D recognisable.
You might as well say "it's D&D when you roll a d20" or "it's D&D when there's a dragon" because those are generic as eff. Virtually every RPG has some version of a to-hit roll, and "AC" is equally common.
The core six ability scores are also found in numerous games. Including others published by WotC (Gamma World, Star Wars) and other companies under the OGL.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
You might as well say "it's D&D when you roll a d20" or "it's D&D when there's a dragon" because those are generic as eff. Virtually every RPG has some version of a to-hit roll, and "AC" is equally common.
The core six ability scores are also found in numerous games. Including others published by WotC (Gamma World, Star Wars) and other companies under the OGL.
But that ignores the spells, the monsters, and the race and classes. Those, more than anything else, give D&D the closest thing it has to a set identity.

You can make any sort of lore changes you want, but if you can play an elf wizard casting fireball at a goblin with 6 HP and a 10 Dex who rolls a d20 to save, it's pretty much D&D.
 


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