D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

[maceochaid]

I remember reading it too, but cant recall where.

I am almost 100% certain this was written in the 2nd E Monstrous Manual. It always bothered me as sounding nonsensical. The Brown dragon depicted in the Draconomicon also had a great design that was well suited to expanding the classic DnD Dragon line up.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Sterile seems to be hardly the right word for the Great Wheel, as it breeds ever more planes of existence!

Huh? The core Great Wheel system as described by Gygax has exactly sixteen outer planes with their relations to each other clearly defined. There is no room for a new plane of, say, neutral evilness -- that slot is already filled by Hades.

 

[Mecheon]

I am almost 100% certain this was written in the 2nd E Monstrous Manual. It always bothered me as sounding nonsensical. The Brown dragon depicted in the Draconomicon also had a great design that was well suited to expanding the classic DnD Dragon line up.

Plus there's the other problem about desert dragons in that roughly 25% of the ancilery dragons live there as well.

I know I've put a list somewhere, but its slightly ridiculous. D&D deserts are basically dragon central

 

[Chaosmancer]

You mean, other than the Primal Power splatbook, which gave us two pages of "how does this class actually connect with the Primal Spirits" fluff for all four of the classes covered (Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, Warden), 5 pages of general fluff about the Primal Spirits and how they interact with the world, 9 pages talking about the spirit world and some of the more important primal spirits, and a bevvy of fluffy sidebars scattered throughout the entire course of the book?

Never saw that book, I didn’t DM 4e long enough before 5e came along.

But, while that all sounds great, doesn’t it also seem a little light? You’ve listed 16 pages, across all editions essentially since this information only exists in 4e. How many pages of information do we have on the Demon Lords across all editions?

I’d just like to see them get more of a focus, unfortunately, D&D has long had gods of nature and the elements who are taking up those roles in the mythology, which makes it more difficult. For example, it would be difficult to have a primal spirit of ice and snow who wants to turn the world into eternal winter, because we have an ice goddess with that exact stated goal who fills that narrative role.

 

[Parmandur]

Huh? The core Great Wheel system as described by Gygax has exactly sixteen outer planes with their relations to each other clearly defined. There is no room for a new plane of, say, neutral evilness -- that slot is already filled by Hades.

From what I can see, new planes were added all the time, at least in the Inner Planes and such.

Anyways, the wizardly absurdity is just more lively than a tight, limited cosmos for my game; and 5E did a good job using the good fluff from 4E, keeping all editions involved.

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[Tony Vargas]

Huh? The core Great Wheel system as described by Gygax has exactly sixteen outer planes with their relations to each other clearly defined. There is no room for a new plane of, say, neutral evilness -- that slot is already filled by Hades.

There was plenty of 'room' within each of the alignment planes, though. 'Layers' for instance (the Abyss had 666, it's not like many of them were defined), and each layer could be infinite, as well, with plenty of room for whatever you needed to add. Then there's the concepts of deities having different aspects based on the beliefs of their worshipers, so different versions of a god of death could all be 'true,' even if they were all the same alignment (ie just perceiving the same god differently). Similarly, you could plop any number of new Domains in the Astral Sea, if you wanted.

Similarly, the inner (elemental) planes got increasingly sub-divided.

 

[Parmandur]

There was plenty of 'room' within each of the alignment planes, though. 'Layers' for instance (the Abyss had 666, it's not like many of them were defined), and each layer could be infinite, as well, with plenty of room for whatever you needed to add. Then there's the concepts of deities having different aspects based on the beliefs of their worshipers, so different versions of a god of death could all be 'true,' even if they were all the same alignment (ie just perceiving the same god differently). Similarly, you could plop any number of new Domains in the Astral Sea, if you wanted.

Similarly, the inner (elemental) planes got increasingly sub-divided.

Important to consider Gygax's intentions: he was not proposing serious ideas for believability, but jokes that could generated ADVENTURE!!!

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[TheCosmicKid]

There was plenty of 'room' within each of the alignment planes, though. 'Layers' for instance (the Abyss had 666, it's not like many of them were defined), and each layer could be infinite, as well, with plenty of room for whatever you needed to add.

The Abyss is the one plane that's arguably expansible that way. The layers of every other plane were clearly enumerated and defined, with rules that were meant to be plane- or layer-wide. If I want to add a place to, say, Bytopia, then regardless of what that place is like, it's pretty obvious what you're going to see when you look up.

Then there's the concepts of deities having different aspects based on the beliefs of their worshipers, so different versions of a god of death could all be 'true,' even if they were all the same alignment (ie just perceiving the same god differently).

The Gygaxian mode of writing about the planes was very much "This is what is true". Sure, as a DM I can change what the god of death looks like, but I can always do that. It's not exactly encouraged in the Great Wheel fluff.

Similarly, you could plop any number of new Domains in the Astral Sea, if you wanted.

Yes, that was a distinct advantage of 4E cosmology.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I didn't even know about Gloamnull! Man, I shoulda used that in my Sigil based interplanar campaign.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Nah, rather there is a default set of assumptions derived from Greyhawk, which is to say that home brew is the default setting: FR is just a frequent fill-in example. Again, the main book from last year has approximately zero Realms material in it.

FR is the stated setting of Volo's guide, and the story elements are made with FR in mind.