D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

[QuietBrowser]

Seriously? The only thing that 4e did to tieflings was A: give them a backstory to explain why they are a notable species on a prime material setting, and B: give them a unified appearance that made them easier for artists to draw. And, seriously, this is a ridiculous thing to complain about when not only can you refluff it, but also every bit of official art for tieflings prior to 4e boiled down to "take a human and throw at least one of the following traits on it: horns, tail, goat legs".

Maybe there were one or two pre-4e pictures of tieflings who didn't fit that formula, but I certainly can't remember seeing any.

Honestly, weird thing is, as much as I loved Planescape: Torment and the picture it painted of a metropolis at the heart of the multiverse, to the point that I can't consider any D&D setting without one... I couldn't really stand most of Planescape's 2e lore. The Great Wheel was boring, most of the creatures were either silly or dull, and Sigil itself came across as just being full of jerks. And that subtle snobbish attitude... gods, that ticked me off.

Don't get me wrong, there were gems amidst the dross. I just had to sift through a whole lake of muck to get them.

 

[avin]

Seriously? The only thing that 4e did to tieflings was A: give them a backstory to explain why they are a notable species on a prime material setting, and B: give them a unified appearance that made them easier for artists to draw. And, seriously, this is a ridiculous thing to complain about when not only can you refluff it, but also every bit of official art for tieflings prior to 4e boiled down to "take a human and throw at least one of the following traits on it: horns, tail, goat legs".

Maybe there were one or two pre-4e pictures of tieflings who didn't fit that formula, but I certainly can't remember seeing any.

Honestly, weird thing is, as much as I loved Planescape: Torment and the picture it painted of a metropolis at the heart of the multiverse, to the point that I can't consider any D&D setting without one... I couldn't really stand most of Planescape's 2e lore. The Great Wheel was boring, most of the creatures were either silly or dull, and Sigil itself came across as just being full of jerks. And that subtle snobbish attitude... gods, that ticked me off.

Don't get me wrong, there were gems amidst the dross. I just had to sift through a whole lake of muck to get them.

A: That's precisely what made them cheesy in 4E. All possibilities Lost in the name of some Bael Turath. No, thank you, I don't like fluff forcing cities into my games.

B: Another realm of possibilities killed in name of a common origin. Too videogamey for me. It's Just dumb all tieflings looking the same. Even us humans have more variety than 4E.

That's my opinion, I know that some DMs like all background ready for gaming.

As for Planescape boring... man, we're not in the same page in fluff...

Enviado de meu D6643 usando Tapatalk

 

[Imaro]

Seriously? The only thing that 4e did to tieflings was A: give them a backstory to explain why they are a notable species on a prime material setting, and B: give them a unified appearance that made them easier for artists to draw. And, seriously, this is a ridiculous thing to complain about when not only can you refluff it, but also every bit of official art for tieflings prior to 4e boiled down to "take a human and throw at least one of the following traits on it: horns, tail, goat legs".

Maybe there were one or two pre-4e pictures of tieflings who didn't fit that formula, but I certainly can't remember seeing any.

The Planeswalker's Handbook had 32 different Tiefling abilities... 47 different appearance traits and 22 different side effects that you could roll for or choose. Not sure about the art but the actual Tiefling in play wasn't horns, tail or goat legs...

EDIT: Huh? They gave them a unified appearance that made them easier for artists to draw... but you just said the art was just take a human and add one of 3 things... how is that not easy??

Honestly, weird thing is, as much as I loved Planescape: Torment and the picture it painted of a metropolis at the heart of the multiverse, to the point that I can't consider any D&D setting without one... I couldn't really stand most of Planescape's 2e lore. The Great Wheel was boring, most of the creatures were either silly or dull, and Sigil itself came across as just being full of jerks. And that subtle snobbish attitude... gods, that ticked me off.

Lol... as opposed to the "serious" monsters in exactly which D&D setting again? As for the Great Wheel being boring, I feel the same way about the numerous pseudo-European settings we've gotten throughout the llife time of D&D. I find it hilarious when someone claims Planescape, Spelljammer or some other weird fantasy setting is boring but Greyhawk, FR, DL and the other re-skinned Europe in D&D drag settings aren't? Personal taste and all I guess... but I've never found Planescape boring or lacking in inspiring me to create adventures. To each his own.

Don't get me wrong, there were gems amidst the dross. I just had to sift through a whole lake of muck to get them.

Well clearly Planescape isn't for you, But I'm curious what setting do you use?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Seriously? The only thing that 4e did to tieflings was A: give them a backstory to explain why they are a notable species on a prime material setting

Which, in itself was a little inconsistent with the goal of presenting a 'generic' setting. Bael Turath & Arkhosia, were pretty specific and flavorful for 'generic.' Yes, they were in the distant past and could be plopped into the antiquity of any setting, in theory, but still.

and B: give them a unified appearance that made them easier for artists to draw.

Which sadly included that really big, weird tail, rather than the cute nearly-prehensile-looking one of the Tiefling illo in 3e.

Maybe there were one or two pre-4e pictures of tieflings who didn't fit that formula, but I certainly can't remember seeing any.

I honestly only remember the one. I never felt like they were meant to be a major race.

Sigil itself came across as just being full of jerks. And that subtle snobbish attitude... gods, that ticked me off.

Definitely, though I wouldn't call it 'subtle.' I blame the influence of WoD/Storyteller.

 

[QuietBrowser]

The Planeswalker's Handbook had 32 different Tiefling abilities... 47 different appearance traits and 22 different side effects that you could roll for or choose. Not sure about the art but the actual Tiefling in play wasn't horns, tail or goat legs...

Yes, a sourcebook that came out after the original Planescape Player's Guide gave them that much appearance flexibility. It was never referenced again. And, since it was a secondary sourcebook, not all DMs would allow it.

Besides which, since appearance does not equate in any way to ability, and none of the tiefling powers of 4e are tied to their appearance, absolutely nothing stopped you from taking the old appearance & eerie traits tables and rolling on them when playing a 4e tiefling. Hell, the nature of 4e made reskinning a snap - I used to use drow stats for a 4e kitsune race.

EDIT: Huh? They gave them a unified appearance that made them easier for artists to draw... but you just said the art was just take a human and add one of 3 things... how is that not easy??

Easy it might have been, but it didn't exactly paint a cohesive picture of the race. Tieflings in pre-4e had some of the most disparate art of any race, which probably contributed to their scarcity; there was no simple formula for ensuring recognizability, which is exactly why 4th edition gave them a more cohesive look. Like or hate it, but the 4e tiefling is as instantly recognizable as a dwarf, an elf, gnome, a warforged, a shardmind or a lizardfolk.

Well clearly Planescape isn't for you, But I'm curious what setting do you use?

Planescape as it was actually put out on the tabletop? Yeah, not for me - Planescape: Torment covered it up magnificently, but the tabletop itself was... a product of its times. As for settings I used? Homebrewed throughout my career, though Eberron and "Nentir Vale" were close enough to my tastes to be enjoyable.

Honestly, I don't know if I'm stepping over any lines when I do my "this is why I loved 4e fluff" monologues, but, screw it, this is my topic, and you lot have made me want to elaborate on just why I loved the World Axis over the Great Wheel. If only this stupid forum would stop glitching its damn underlying coding...

 

[Parmandur]

The shardmind is recognizable, really...?

5E looks like it is going to split the difference, with the Abyssal Tiefling subrace from UA filling the 2E races shoes.

Sent from my BLU LIFE XL using EN World mobile app

 

[billd91]

Plus there's the other problem about desert dragons in that roughly 25% of the ancilery dragons live there as well.

I know I've put a list somewhere, but its slightly ridiculous. D&D deserts are basically dragon central

Well, that's not exactly the blue dragon's fault considering the browns, yellows, and vishaps were all cobbled on later. It probably has more to do with designers trying a little too hard to make those dragons fit into their environment's color scheme, something that's probably not utterly necessary for an apex predator with that level of power, mobility, and intelligence.

 

[billd91]

We went back from the chaotic and mixed elementals of 4e (including the awesome Primordial Blots, which were basically embryonic worlds) to the vanilla Earth/Air/Water/Fire elemental set up.

That's classic setup of earth/air/water fire elementals.

And anyone who uses the term vanilla in a negative connotation clearly doesn't understand vanilla.
What tops most polls of popular ice cream flavor? Vanilla.
What scent is usually near the top or at the top of lists of sexy smells? Vanilla.
Vanilla is foundational.
Vanilla is sexy sophistication.
Vanilla effing rocks.

 

[QuietBrowser]

The shardmind is recognizable, really...?

Visually? Yes, it is. When's the last time you confused a shardmind for any other race?

 

[Parmandur]

Visually? Yes, it is. When's the last time you confused a shardmind for any other race?

If I ever considered them, maybe with Silicoids?

Sent from my BLU LIFE XL using EN World mobile app