D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

[Parmandur]

Stop assuming you speak for most people. WotC actually did do some polling about edition preference, and the result they claim to have gotten is that the majority don't have a strong edition preference, but like D&D in general - that it's the h4ters and 4vengers that were distinctly in the minority.

For edition, sure; cosmology is a different matter. Maybe a poll would be in order, though it wouldn't be more than junk data, given sample size and selection. Unlike WotC, and the direction they chose.

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[Tony Vargas]

For edition, sure; cosmology is a different matter.

How do you think people would feel about an edition that ruined the cosmology for them?

Maybe a poll would be in order, though it wouldn't be more than junk data, given sample size and selection. Unlike WotC,

A WotC poll is exactly what i was talking about. During the playtest, when they claimed they were getting huge responses. That's the result they claim they got. Take it up with them - or conduct your own poll of hundreds of thousands of D&Ders - if you want to start making claims that a 'majority' always agrees with you.

 

[pemerton]

Which, in itself was a little inconsistent with the goal of presenting a 'generic' setting. Bael Turath & Arkhosia, were pretty specific and flavorful for 'generic.'

The 4e books didn't set out to present a "generic" setting. The 4e PHB and MM are full of planes, gods, history, baleful stars, and other non-generic setting elements.

That's one of the strengths of the edition!

 

[Parmandur]

How do you think people would feel about an edition that ruined the cosmology for them?

A WotC poll is exactly what i was talking about. During the playtest, when they claimed they were getting huge responses. That's the result they claim they got. Take it up with them - or conduct your own poll of hundreds of thousands of D&Ders - if you want to start making claims that a 'majority' always agrees with you.

This conversation isn't about edition, it is about fluff; you could do the Great Wheel in 4E, or use the World Axis in 5E. WotC did extensive public testing on their fluff choices, and came up with an excellent synthesis using all previous editions based on popular feedback; there is a lot of 4E's fluff in the 5E default cosmology, the best parts really.

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[Imaro]

The 4e books didn't set out to present a "generic" setting. The 4e PHB and MM are full of planes, gods, history, baleful stars, and other non-generic setting elements.

That's one of the strengths of the edition!

I always find this an interesting point about the default 4e setting, it's like half of it's advocates see it as a generic lightly sketched setting that is easy to replace and modify while the other half see it as a fully fleshed out setting with ample details and history... I don't remember the 4e setting well enough to go with either interpretation but i find the seemingly polar positions on it interesting, I may pull out my 4e books to re-read it again.

 

[Parmandur]

I always find this an interesting point about the default 4e setting, it's like half of it's advocates see it as a generic lightly sketched setting that is easy to replace and modify while the other half see it as a fully fleshed out setting with ample details and history... I don't remember the 4e setting well enough to go with either interpretation but i find the seemingly polar positions on it interesting, I may pull out my 4e books to re-read it again.

That's the strength of the Points O' Light approach: provide lots of detailed hooks, but a DM is free to use as much or as little as needed. It's how my group used Greyhawk in 3.x: pick a god from the PHB, setting details beyond that unimportant. Imagine folks were all over a spectrum for Greyhawk, which gave WotC the PoL idea. Decent plan, some interesting setting details.

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[the Jester]

I think the World Axis cosmology was one of the greatest strengths of 4e (which edition I liked, though I also saw its weaknesses). However, it had one huge flaw- it made huge changes in the existing cosmology, which meant ongoing campaigns that had major planar elements were either encouraged to drop the current game or to not use the new cosmology. There is one infamous comment by the 4e designers when asked about ongoing campaigns, where they pretty well said, "Yeah, just drop them and start over", which... well... wasn't very welcoming.

Anyhow, the fluff in 4e was great. One of the big flaws in the early books (e.g. the 4e Monster Manual) was that they didn't include much story; they seemed to reserve that for the more 'fluffy' books. Later on, the Monster Vault corrected this with what is, in my opinion, the flat-out best Monster Manual type book D&D has ever put out. The lore was amazing, fun to read, deep, and well organized. Likewise, reading any of the planar sourcebooks, there was great flavor all through it. It was very obvious that a lot of hard work went on behind the scenes to put the "big picture" together before the lore for a specific small bit (e.g. giants) got written, so that the little pieces fit together pretty perfectly.

But the middle finger to long time campaigns was (I think) a pretty heavy blow to the impression that the World Axis cosmology, and the lore tied to it, made on people. "I can't use this with my campaign? Well, then why bother?"

It actually didn't take a tremendous amount of work to reconcile the Great Wheel and World Axis cosmologies, especially if you're willing to posit that both models are just that- models for sages and wizards to use in comprehending the planes and how they align and connect. And, for one example, it's not hard to change the pantheon from the Dawn War "generic" one for whatever your campaign already uses.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the World Axis cosmology was one of the greatest strengths of 4e (which edition I liked, though I also saw its weaknesses). However, it had one huge flaw- it made huge changes in the existing cosmology, which meant ongoing campaigns that had major planar elements were either encouraged to drop the current game or to not use the new cosmology. There is one infamous comment by the 4e designers when asked about ongoing campaigns, where they pretty well said, "Yeah, just drop them and start over", which... well... wasn't very welcoming.

Anyhow, the fluff in 4e was great. One of the big flaws in the early books (e.g. the 4e Monster Manual) was that they didn't include much story; they seemed to reserve that for the more 'fluffy' books. Later on, the Monster Vault corrected this with what is, in my opinion, the flat-out best Monster Manual type book D&D has ever put out. The lore was amazing, fun to read, deep, and well organized. Likewise, reading any of the planar sourcebooks, there was great flavor all through it. It was very obvious that a lot of hard work went on behind the scenes to put the "big picture" together before the lore for a specific small bit (e.g. giants) got written, so that the little pieces fit together pretty perfectly.

But the middle finger to long time campaigns was (I think) a pretty heavy blow to the impression that the World Axis cosmology, and the lore tied to it, made on people. "I can't use this with my campaign? Well, then why bother?"

It actually didn't take a tremendous amount of work to reconcile the Great Wheel and World Axis cosmologies, especially if you're willing to posit that both models are just that- models for sages and wizards to use in comprehending the planes and how they align and connect. And, for one example, it's not hard to change the pantheon from the Dawn War "generic" one for whatever your campaign already uses.

Right, the latter solution being the new default setting.

The fluff was fine, for itself; but as a business move was a real boner, unfortunately for all involved.

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[Tony Vargas]

There is one infamous comment by the 4e designers when asked about ongoing campaigns, where they pretty well said, "Yeah, just drop them and start over", which... well... wasn't very welcoming.

I missed that one - to be fair to myself, it was easy to miss one comment like that in the storm of them WotC generated and fans blew out of proportion. But, wow, is it pointless.
Campaigns don't go forever. Enjoying a campaign in the last ed? Finish it out before you jump into the new one, or play some one-shots with the new one while you finish the old, get a feel for it. I finished out both campaigns I was playing in 3.5 before we started on 4e. I'm finishing out a 4e campaign I started at the end of 2011, it'll probably take a while. It doesn't stop me from enjoying 5e. :shrug:

But the middle finger to long time campaigns was (I think) a pretty heavy blow to the impression that the World Axis cosmology, and the lore tied to it, made on people. "I can't use this with my campaign? Well, then why bother?"

By the same token, though, just use it in your next campaign.

It actually didn't take a tremendous amount of work to reconcile the Great Wheel and World Axis cosmologies, especially if you're willing to posit that both models are just that- models for sages and wizards to use in comprehending the planes and how they align and connect. And, for one example, it's not hard to change the pantheon from the Dawn War "generic" one for whatever your campaign already uses.

Yes! I'm not alone afterall. I thought maybe I just had WoD/M:tA cosmological relativism on the brain there.

 

[Beleriphon]

Honestly, the worst thing about the World Axis is that it no longer makes Sigil the absolute be-all, end-all last name in planar traveling, now you can literally sail the Astral Sea and travel to the Dominions. Even then, it's still a hugely advantageous nexus-point and, really, you could technically portal directly from plane to plane in 2e. The Outer Planes just weren't as easy to get between as the Astral Dominions are.

Sigil is still The Cage, and the City of Doors. Best thing about it for the World Axis was that it allowed instant access to anywhere if you knew what you were doing. Need to find Asmodeus secret toilet paper stash? There's probably a portal in Sigil that takes you right to his fiendish supply closet.