D&D 5E Pushing off a cliff

[cmad1977]

That's not entirely absent the ability to alter perception of certain activities.

Players might forget that their opponents won't get the second roll because they always see the roll happen when the opponents try things on them.

Players might also feel that this rule is the DM putting on "kid gloves" for them, and end up not liking it. I know I personally don't like when a DM looks like they aren't sure whether they want to be adding a particular element or not because they are also mitigating their own choice with another change - which is what using dangerous terrain with a safety-net roll is.

I'm a big softy.
Hasn't been a problem thus far what with the wacky antics the PCs get into or their propensity for making death saves.

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[mrpopstar]

What [MENTION=25352]mrpopstar[/MENTION] said, but with a slightly different bent:

Adding more die rolls that have to go a specific way before the desired outcome of an action is arrived at makes it far less likely that the desired outcome occurs.

In this case, the desired outcome is to take advantage of the terrain for a fight not being a vast featureless plain - and if you would have a 70% chance of pushing your target across a vast featureless plain, but they get a save they only have a 30% chance of succeeding at to avoid that same push sending them over a cliff, you've taken what could be described as "more likely than not to work" and made it describable as "basically a coin toss" because even with really bad odds to pass the save, the chance of desired outcome happening is 49%.

And the end result of putting these extra rolls between declared action and desired outcome? In my experience, it's that players simply stop attempting any action other than those which you haven't stuck extra rolls onto (i.e. "I guess I'll just attack and deal damage since everything else is too likely to fail")

I'm also a huge fan of 5th Edition's simplicity with regard to the cascade of checks, saves, and adjudication that would arise as a byproduct of allowing the golem above to make a saving throw.

The spell's effect would still be pushing, the golem has already lost the contest, and any further consideration is needlessly complicating.

The '2nd save' is something I only allow players.

"A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer." — The Environment, PHB

 

[cmad1977]

I'm also a huge fan of 5th Edition's simplicity with regard to the cascade of checks, saves, and adjudication that would arise as a byproduct of allowing the golem above to make a saving throw.

The spell's effect would still be pushing, the golem has already lost the contest, and any further consideration is needlessly complicating.


"A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer." — The Environment, PHB

I find 'gripping the crumbling ledge by your fingernails' significantly more exciting than 'you plummet to your doom.' Infind there's plenty of plummeting in either case.



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[mrpopstar]

I find 'gripping the crumbling ledge by your fingernails' significantly more exciting than 'you plummet to your doom.' Infind there's plenty of plummeting in either case.

A matter of preference, of course.

 

[LapBandit]

I don't allow the secondary save. If you fail your first save, you are going over. That said, if the cliff isn't a perfectly sheer drop, you are going to bang off a bunch of terrain on the way down (like on the side of a mountain). I allow a high DC save for each thing you are bouncing off of. The save starts at DC 15 and increases by one for each 10 feet you fall.

Just recently the EK in our group was shoved off the side of a cliff falling 60 feet down and banging off the side of the cliff, DC 21 Athletics to arrest his fall and he rolled a 22. Thematic and exciting I thought.

 

[Barolo]

I don't allow the secondary save. If you fail your first save, you are going over. That said, if the cliff isn't a perfectly sheer drop, you are going to bang off a bunch of terrain on the way down (like on the side of a mountain). I allow a high DC save for each thing you are bouncing off of. The save starts at DC 15 and increases by one for each 10 feet you fall.

Just recently the EK in our group was shoved off the side of a cliff falling 60 feet down and banging off the side of the cliff, DC 21 Athletics to arrest his fall and he rolled a 22. Thematic and exciting I thought.

One could also interpret the situation as at the moment they are pushed off the ledge they are no longer at the hold of the spell, as they slip down. In this case, a check could be called for, maybe even at the expense of the affected creature's reaction, to simulate an attempt to hold oneself from falling.

Anyhow, my initial point was not about my preference in this situation. I would probably just narrate the poor creature fell to their doom. What I was expressing was that the OP author did not do anything "wrong" by calling a ruling, and should not shy away from ruling their own game.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I find 'gripping the crumbling ledge by your fingernails' significantly more exciting than 'you plummet to your doom.'

At my table, the difference between those two is that the first is a(n incomplete) description I might use for successfully not being pushed off the cliff, adding a quick recovery to the description to prevent the player from feeling like their character is in a bad situation even after their success, and the second is a description of failure to stop yourself being pushed, and more likely to be using "doom" for flavor than actually literally meaning that, since the last example I have of someone getting pushed off something in one of my campaigns was a paladin being shoved off a balcony on a castle astride a waterfall and the barbarian diving after him because she assumed (correctly, it turns out) that the huge fall wouldn't actually kill either of them, and that she'd be able to stay conscious and swim the paladin to the bank so he wouldn't drown.

 

[aco175]

I kind of see this as two separate things. The first is the push which may be an opposed check or save from a spell. The Dex save I give to save you from falling is the other part of the equation and kinks in any time you fall, whether pushed or not.

 

[LapBandit]

One addendum: Should also depend on how far over the cliff you're shoved.

 

[hejtmane]

I can see an option after falling making a save for how you fall. Hence in my lifetime the gist of it the branch broke and I fell 1.5 stories breaking branches on the way down to the ground. I ended up with only the wind knocked out of me and my back all scraped up. Last year a ladder slipped out from under me I started falling but with some deft last minute acrobatic check while I managed to grab part of the roof and kick the ladder out from under myself so i did not land on the ladder. Ended up with a chunk of skin from my foot gone ouch and a bruised and scratched bicep/tricep area. Both times i failed my fall check but my falls damage taken was minor compared to what it should have been