D&D 4E Changing the Combat Parameters of 4th Edition

[Manbearcat]

You didn't get enough XP for your efforts here. Have some.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

TESTING THE TABLE FOR ENCOUNTER DESIGN

So in order to test the table and the numbers behind it we can try to design an encounter using the table. I will start with an 8th level example with 5 players (just to try something else than 6, 16 and 26th we tried Before)

8th Level Party Encounter
We start with a Single Encounter against five 8th Level Monsters. Encounter XP budget is 2950 XP, we get five 8th level monsters worth 1180 XP each. Looking at the party we get the following figures for a Single Encounter:
- Party HP: 300 HP
- Party HS value: 50 HP (1/6 of max) with 5 HS
- Average Monster Damage: -121 HP
- Average Magic Healing: 97 HP with 5 HS
- Natural Healing: We need to use 2.4 second winds to heal 24 HP
- Combat Length: 3.7 rounds
= Total Party loss is 7.4 HS to get back to full HP during battle

So lets compare this to a Triple Encounter scenario instead. Encounter XP budget is split into Three: 2950/3=983 XP encounter budget. Just to make it fun lets build a little different encounters just to be able to compare.
- Encounter 1: Seven 3rd Level Monsters (7 x 140=980 XP) -> Average Monster Damage: -37 HP; Combat Length: 2.2 rounds
- Encounter 2: Three 6th Level Monsters (3 x 350=1050 XP) -> Average Monster Damage: -38 HP; Combat Length: 1.6 rounds
- Encounter 3: One Elite 7th Level Monster (900 XP) -> Average Monster Damage: -36 HP; Combat Length: 1.2 rounds
- Total Monster Damage 3 Encounters: -111 HP
- Average Magic Healing: 50 HP per Encounter with 3.7 HS = 50 x 3 = 150 HP with 11.1 HS
- Natural Healing: Will not be needed as magical healing is more than monster damage.
= Total Party loss is 6.82 HS to get back to full during the 3 Encounters

If we compare these two encounters we find that they play out with almost the same result: 7.4 vs. 6.8 HS used. Both cases let party recover to full HP. The average monster damage output is almost identical in the Three smaller encounters: -37, -38, -36; and the total damage is quite similar as well -111 vs. -121 HP in damage. It seems very well balanced on an overall level, we will have to see if we get similar numbers at higher levels or not.

NOTE
Another important thing to point out is that we have managed to reduce a Single Encounter with a combat length of 3.7 rounds to Three Encounters with a varying length of 1.2 rounds to 2.2 rounds depending if you want to throw in many weaker monsters or a single harder monster, while still consuming the same HS Resources as in the Single Encounter, i.e. we have managed to reach the design goal!!!!!

Its interesting analysis. I'm not sure I completely share your goals, but your math seems reasonably solid, as far as it goes. I suspect of course you'll find that on a table top it may turn out to need some adjustments, and there may be some unforeseen implications, but I guess you'll find out!

 

[Myrhdraak]

You didn't get enough XP for your efforts here. Have some.

Thank you ;-)

 

[Myrhdraak]

Its interesting analysis. I'm not sure I completely share your goals, but your math seems reasonably solid, as far as it goes. I suspect of course you'll find that on a table top it may turn out to need some adjustments, and there may be some unforeseen implications, but I guess you'll find out!

For each one their own dream of paradise!

It will be interesting to see in game play, I intend to implement and try it out, but first I will write down a conversion guidline for those who want to try it out.

 

[Garthanos]

Way too few of rounds how can the battle be interesting with 1.2 to 2.2 rounds...

 

[Myrhdraak]

TESTING THE TABLE FOR ENCOUNTER DESIGN - 18th Level

Let's see how 18th level work out as well.

18th Level Party Encounter
We start with a Single Encounter against five 18th Level Monsters. Encounter XP budget is 33,500 XP, we get five 8th level monsters worth 6,700 XP each. Looking at the party we get the following figures for a Single Encounter:
- Party HP: 530 HP
- Party HS value: 88 HP (1/6 of max) with 5 HS
- Average Monster Damage: -348 HP
- Average Magic Healing: 200 HP with 9 HS
- Natural Healing: We need to use 8.3 healing surges of second wind and natural healing (the later under a short rest) to heal 148 HP
- Combat Length: 3.7 rounds
= Total Party loss is 16 HS to get back to full HP during battle

So lets compare this to a Triple Encounter scenario instead. Encounter XP budget is split into Three: 33,500/3=11,167 XP encounter budget. Lets build a different encounters to see if it also works at 18th level.
- Encounter 1: Eight 11th Level Monsters (8 x 1,280=10,240 XP) -> Average Monster Damage: -119 HP; Combat Length: 4.1 rounds
- Encounter 2: Three 15th Level Monsters (3 x 3,450=10,350 XP) -> Average Monster Damage: -117 HP; Combat Length: 2.0 rounds
- Encounter 3: One Elite 17th Level Monster (10,800 XP) -> Average Monster Damage: -116 HP; Combat Length: 1.7 rounds
- Total Monster Damage 3 Encounters: -352 HP
- Average Magic Healing: 97 HP per Encounter with 6.2 HS = 160 x 3 = 480 HP with 18.6 HS
- Natural Healing: Will not be needed as magical healing is more than monster damage.
= Total Party loss is 13.64 HS to get back to full during the 3 Encounters

If we compare these two encounters we yet again find that they play out with almost the same result: 16 vs. 13.6 HS used. However, the Single Encounter do require the party to take a short rest to fully recover all HP. The average monster damage output is almost identical in the three smaller encounters: -119, -117, -116; and the total damage is quite similar as well -348 vs. -352 HP in damage. It seems very well balanced also on Paragon Level of play.

NOTE
So what happens with the combat length? Well here we can se that the combat length for the Single Encounter is 3.7 rounds - similar to what we got at 8th Level. The Three Encounters scenario have varying length of 1.7, 2.0 and 4.1 rounds. It is obvious not worthwile to bring in a lot of weaker enemies at paragon play if your ambition is to reduce combat length. However they all consume almost the same HS Resources as in the Single Encounter. I would say that we have achieve the design goal, but it might be worthwile to look deeper into the minion or weak enemy option that S'mon was suggesting if we want to go to many weaker enemies but also reducing combat length at the same time.

 

[Myrhdraak]

Way too few of rounds how can the battle be interesting with 1.2 to 2.2 rounds...

It is not going to be interesting! That is the point of this exercise. As we concluded earlier - 4th Edition is designed to make every encounter interesting and tactical, potentially leading to 5 x 2 hours playing time to get through an adventuring day. If that is how you like to do it - do it. However, if you are interesting to add simple random encounters, a few fast skirmishes before the big tactical fight that plays out in 30-40 minutes but still consumes limited party Resources (HS), 4th Edition might not really cure that itch you have. 5th edition is design more with that in mind - but lacks the tactical part that 4th Edition brings. What we have created here is a couple of changes to the 4th Edition Rules that allow the game to do BOTH, not one or the other, but BOTH. You as the DM have an easy toolbox to use. And if you want to convert 5th Edition adventures, it will probably be simpler than with the traditional 4th Edition rule, which would require more of a redesign of the encounters (however, with some more monster changes).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Way too few of rounds how can the battle be interesting with 1.2 to 2.2 rounds...

It can paint a picture of the character(s) administering that beat-down as badasses, which is not exactly counter-genre.

 

[Myrhdraak]

CONVERSION GUIDE

I think I have something solid enough to start trying out at my own game table. In order for others who are interested to try to use the same game changes to make it easier to use the 5th Edition material that is being produced and apply it to your own 4th Edition setting, I have summarized all the proposed changes (as well as some optional ones) in a 4.5 Edition Conversion Guide.

4.5 Edition Conversion Guide

/Myrhdraak

 

[Garthanos]

What we have created here is a couple of changes to the 4th Edition Rules that allow the game to do BOTH, not one or the other, but BOTH. You as the DM have an easy toolbox to use. .

Potentially valuable in the flexibility field. I have swapped back and forth between skill challenge like mechanics (fairly free formed) for some resolutions that might have had elements of combat but werent worth a full battle resolution.