D&D 5E Let's Talk About Yawning Portal

[jimmytheccomic]

I've found 5e quite deadly, more so than 2nd & 3rd, which are the other editions I have the most experience with. Getting a PC to 0 hp might be an issue at higher levels, but once there, death is difficult to avoid.

1.) Any damage at 0 hp = a failed death save. This includes damage from AoE spells (e.g. fireball), environmental damage, etc. Any decent high level encounter will have enemies using AoE abilities or environmental damage, if not both, so that's at least one automatic death save failure per round for downed PCs, if not more, in most encounters.

2.) A smart NPC will finish off downed PCs if they know the party has healing ability. Any attack vs. an unconscious PC has advantage. Any damage taken results in a death save failure. Any attack within 5' of the downed PC is an automatic critical if it hits. Critical hits = 2 death save failures.

3.) If a PC at 0 hp takes damage equal to his hit point total, he dies instantly. This is less likely at higher levels, but could happen with a critical hit, which any hit from a target within 5' will be.

For these reasons, even at high levels, an encounter with intelligent NPCs/monsters that the DM isn't softballing will be very deadly to any PCs that get to 0 hp. More often than not, PCs at 0 hp would be killed before they even got a chance to roll their first death saving throw, unless the next PC in the initiative order is able to heal them.

Yeah, in general I find 5e threatening, but Tomb of Horrors specifically bumps into issues that make it a bit more of a cakewalk for 5e characters:

-If a character drops to 0 due to a trap, nothing is attacking him or her on the ground, the other players will just revive them.

-Damage output from traps isn't really high enough to worry a high level character, especially since there's no reason to not take frequent rests.

-The creatures faced in the tomb are all by themselves, and of a fairly low CR. (They even go out of their way to make the Mummy Lord weaker, despite it being an optional fight caused by a dumb action!)

 

[jimmytheccomic]

I wonder how many people here are planning on actually running Tomb of Horrors now, and if these concerns are real ones (about how their players will actually survive and not be outright killed) and how many are just theoretical.

Plus, being able to defeat the demilich seems like a moot point. You weren't expected to fight him in the original: that was a lose condition. In theory, players should just take the treasure and ignore the skull, never triggering the encounter they'd unknowingly have an easier than expected time winning...

I'm running it Monday night (or, at least a portion of it, we game for two hours and change), I'll check in afterword.

 

[Jester David]

I'm running it Monday night (or, at least a portion of it, we game for two hours and change), I'll check in afterword.

I'm curious to hear...

 

[Luz]

I'm a huge fan of ToH. I ran the 5e playtest version from Dungeon Magazine about a year ago, which is very similar to the TftYP version (although I used the demilich stats from the MM 5e) and it worked very well. Initially, I had concerns about it being too soft because it isn't as lethal as the original and that I would have to make things much harder, but in the end I didn't really. Many of the damage dealing traps in the original were not life threatening, so I found the 5e version treated them in similar fashion: minor inconveniences to keep the party on their toes and drain them of resources. Same with the monsters in the original (with the exception of Acererak, of course), none of them seriously challenge a high level party. The nerfed mummy lord in TftYP is only keeping true to what's encountered in the original ToH, it's not trying to give the PCs a serious run for their money. In a lot of ways, I think that was the intent of the tomb - to constantly challenge or fool the expectations of the players. Most (but not all) of the insta-kill traps have been left intact, and most of these were (and still are) wholly dependant on the PCs making dumb decisions. Is the 5e version as deadly as the original? No, not by a long shot. But it's still very deadly, and I'd argue probably a lot more playable than the original. For that, I commend the designers for giving us that.

I think it's understandable for fans of the original to read the TftYP version and kneejerk a negative reaction that it's not hard enough, but run this version before jumping to that conclusion. I also think a lot of DMs read this from a DM perspective and assume the players will have the same knowledge. Sure, almost any player who has heard of the ToH knows it's a trap-filled dungeon with a demilich. Fair enough. But beyond that, they will still need to navigate the tomb and deal with Acererak on their own. If they figure out for themselves how to defeat him (or just leave him alone and take his treasure), then it's a win for them. I think that's how Gygax intended it.

I took a group of seasoned grognards through this and they still all died in the end. They made it to the final chamber but the tomb had taken a big toll by the time they reached Acererak and were in no shape to fight him. I was surprised at how some of them still fell for some of the insta-kills, or made the wrong choices, or just had some bad luck with the dice. Acererak may not be the dreadful opponent he was back in '78, but played properly ( [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] has the right idea) this 5e version still has teeth.

 

[Reynard]

I took a group of seasoned grognards through this and they still all died in the end.

What level were the PCs put of curiosity?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using EN World mobile app

 

[Luz]

What level were the PCs put of curiosity?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using EN World mobile app

Level 14, IIRC.

 

[zaratan]

I'm a huge fan of ToH. I ran the 5e playtest version from Dungeon Magazine about a year ago, which is very similar to the TotYP version (although I used the demilich stats from the MM 5e) and it worked very well. Initially, I had concerns about it being too soft because it isn't as lethal as the original and that I would have to make things much harder, but in the end I didn't really. Many of the damage dealing traps in the original were not life threatening, so I found the 5e version treated them in similar fashion: minor inconveniences to keep the party on their toes and drain them of resources. Same with the monsters in the original (with the exception of Acererak, of course), none of them seriously challenge a high level party. The nerfed mummy lord in TotYP is only keeping true to what's encountered in the original ToH, it's not trying to give the PCs a serious run for their money. In a lot of ways, I think that was the intent of the tomb - to constantly challenge or fool the expectations of the players. Most (but not all) of the insta-kill traps have been left intact, and most of these were (and still are) wholly dependant on the PCs making dumb decisions. Is the 5e version as deadly as the original? No, not by a long shot. But it's still very deadly, and I'd argue probably a lot more playable than the original. For that, I commend the designers for giving us that.

I think it's understandable for fans of the original to read the TotYP version and kneejerk a negative reaction that it's not hard enough, but run this version before jumping to that conclusion. I also think a lot of DMs read this from a DM perspective and assume the players will have the same knowledge. Sure, almost any player who has heard of the ToH knows it's a trap-filled dungeon with a demilich. Fair enough. But beyond that, they will still need to navigate the tomb and deal with Acererak on their own. If they figure out for themselves how to defeat him (or just leave him alone and take his treasure), then it's a win for them. I think that's how Gygax intended it.

I took a group of seasoned grognards through this and they still all died in the end. They made it to the final chamber but the tomb had taken a big toll by the time they reached Acererak and were in no shape to fight him. I was surprised at how some of them still fell for some of the insta-kills, or made the wrong choices, or just had some bad luck with the dice. Acererak may not be the dreadful opponent he was back in '78, but played properly (@Flamestrike has the right idea) this 5e version still has teeth.

How did you deal with the free rest and recover?

 

[Luz]

How did you deal with the free rest and recover?

Honestly, I didn't worry about it. My players know me well enough to know that I typically check for random encounters when they take rests and, even though I didn't since their are no random encounters in the tomb, they were not aware of that fact. So they were reluctant to set up camp in the tomb, especially THIS tomb (its reputation goes a long way to putting players on edge.) They did take short rests here and there and I'd make some bogus rolls for random encounters or have their passive Perceptions hear spooky "whispers", etc. which kept them nervous and moving. Regardless, I don't think it matters, Zaratan. The PCs will heal from the traps that don't instantly kill them, so being fully rested isn't going to change much. Same goes for the monsters (besides Acererak); some of them are there to be a nuisance, some are merely meant to deliberately get the players psyched out, and none of them are going to seriously challenge the party - but it sure is amusing watching the PCs use up all their best attacks on these wimpy monsters. Moreover, its the rash decisions the players make themselves that will get a lot of them killed. And if the party isn't fully rested by the time they reach Acererak, then they will have a tough time with him. Unless they have done a lot of homework with divinations, its quite possible they will stumble into his final resting chamber midway through the adventuring day none the wiser - with fewer resources at their disposal.

 

[Jester David]

How did you deal with the free rest and recover?

We are talking about a 11+ level party. Assuming the cleric only uses half their spells in the dungeon, the party can heal quite a lot overnight.

 

[zaratan]

We are talking about a 11+ level party. Assuming the cleric only uses half their spells in the dungeon, the party can heal quite a lot overnight.

Yeah, I asked because by the book you can rest freely (players don't know that at beginning). My worry was about too much recover and [MENTION=94725]Luz[/MENTION] said he follow exacly what was written.