Judgement calls vs "railroading"

[Lanefan]

Your example of a cult ending the world behind the scenes is using a bad example to dismiss an idea -- having a game end without any player engagement in the reasons is just bad GMing, in any system or method.

Maybe.

But maybe not; if the "world ending" merely represents a dramatic (and very unexpected) setting shift from, say, something almost steampunk like Eberron or high fantasy like 3e FR to something grim and gritty like Nentir Vale or some other post-medieval-apocalypse points-of-light affair; in other words, presented as a really really big challenge for the PCs to deal with rather than "world ends, everyone dies".

Lan-"if any of my players are reading this, yes this is giving me ideas"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

Thanks for sharing that, it kind of helps see how things play out in the system. I have to ask, mostly out of curiosity....is this a play by post game? The back and forth is very verbose and has an element of prose that I wouldn't expect at a table.

I was kinda wondering about that as well only play-by-post never occurred to me.

I just think that any dungeon or hexcrawl can be boiled down to some kind of flow chart. I think storylines can also be designed that way. In that sense, they are the same. Kind of an "if A, then B or C" and then "If B, then D or E or F"....that kind of thing. Hard to describe without a visual.

That's how my storyboard goes, where A-B-C etc. each represent an adventure, a mission, or some other discrete major element. The story lines (or adventure paths, if you like) merge, split, interweave, and eventually arrive at two or three endpoints of which I hope all see play but am fairly sure already some won't.

Lan-"assuming, of course, they ever finish the adventure they're in. Dark Tower is BIG!"-efan

 

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] , real quick as I don't have time to post. I'll get to all the responses either well late this evening or tomorrow.

Multimedia. S.O. (we live together) and one of my oldest friends (2 members of my normal gaming group which includes games of 4e, Strike! as Star Wars, Cortex+, Apocalypse World, Dungeon World, Dogs in the Vineyard, Mouse Guard, and a 13th Age game that I am unfortunately GMing...the 5e game I GM isn't with any of them...Torchbearer, B/X, AD&D1e games I GM are with another group). You're talking a lot of 3 way text chat, phone texts, some Skype for quick 20-30 minute sessions, voice to voice phone calls on drives home from work, voice messages, emails, and PBP as well. The whole of it was transcribed into full PBP format to retain continuity and keep all parties abreast of things.

 

[chaochou]

A world that doesn't change unless a player looks at it is boring.

For who?

 

[hawkeyefan]

[MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] , real quick as I don't have time to post. I'll get to all the responses either well late this evening or tomorrow.

Multimedia. S.O. (we live together) and one of my oldest friends (2 members of my normal gaming group which includes games of 4e, Strike! as Star Wars, Cortex+, Apocalypse World, Dungeon World, Dogs in the Vineyard, Mouse Guard, and a 13th Age game that I am unfortunately GMing...the 5e game I GM isn't with any of them...Torchbearer, B/X, AD&D1e games I GM are with another group). You're talking a lot of 3 way text chat, phone texts, some Skype for quick 20-30 minute sessions, voice to voice phone calls on drives home from work, voice messages, emails, and PBP as well. The whole of it was transcribed into full PBP format to retain continuity and keep all parties abreast of things.

Gotcha. That's pretty crazy. Very cool that you guys have found a way to play like that. I don't think most groups could handle that.

 

[Ovinomancer]

For who?

If you have a counterpoint, take a crack. Is rather not waste time guessing where you're going.

 

[Campbell]

I am somewhat vexed. I have something to say that I fear may be somewhat counterproductive if I do not say it in the right way. Still, I feel like it needs saying.

Let's get something out of the way. Techniques like fronts, GM moves, PC-NPC-PC triangles, relationship mapping, and scene framing are absolutely useful tools that have wide applications to a variety of ways to approach roleplaying games. Also even if you do not buy into them in the same way I do the principles listed in games like Apocalypse World can be fruitful to at least consider. This is something that I want to encourage. If there is interest I would be more than happy to discuss this stuff. I have experience applying these techniques in a host of games, including some fairly mainstream games.

Here's where I get a little contentious. I do this with the best of intentions.

The notion that we can be flexible in our application of technique and decision making process, but yet consistently achieve similar results to the principled and dedicated application of these same techniques in the hands of a skilled practitioner of the approach the techniques were developed to support is something I have trouble with. The mental framework and principles that support a particular sort of play are not the sort of thing you can slip in and out of like a comfortable pair of shoes. The clarion call of your other play priorities, techniques, and natural way of doing things will always be present in the background. Even within the confines of a particular discipline you will often be called upon to prioritize one principle over another from time to time. Knowing what to do when is a skill that is honed from continued application and very much subject to the vagaries of the moment, the other players, and the fiction in play at that moment.

I am not saying these techniques have no use outside of the confines of their particular approach. Far from it! We all develop an approach or set of approaches to running a given game that is uniquely suited to our particular interests, those of our fellow players, and the tools provided by the game we are playing. As our skills are honed this changes over time. We are faced with new challenges and adapt to changing circumstances. I just feel that an integrated, deliberate approach is best.

What I am trying to get at here is any particular way to play a roleplaying game comes with its own unique set of tradeoffs. I also feel that the way we think about things has a tremendous impact on the play experience and culture of play at the table even if we don't like talk about it.

 

[Campbell]

I would think that creating "tension and drama" isn't really dependent on the mechanics, though, right? Isn't it more a question of the situation that has come up, and then the success or failure of the PCs in that given situation?

I think tension and drama as experienced by the players can absolutely be heightened by the game. The mechanisms are part of this, but so are things like GM techniques, and the culture of play. When we are following the fiction together, players are playing their characters with integrity, and the GM is playing the world with integrity and there is no release valve from the tension of the moment mechanics can be crafted that directly reflect that. The fiction is absolutely critical. No set of mechanisms can save a game from uninteresting fiction or players who are not concerned with it. The game can add another layer to it though.

 

[chaochou]

If you have a counterpoint, take a crack. Is rather not waste time guessing where you're going.

It's a very simple question. You said "A world that doesn't change unless a player looks at it is boring."

You must therefore be asserting it is boring for somebody.

For a player who isn't looking at it? Who is it boring for?

 

[Nagol]

It's a very simple question. You said "A world that doesn't change unless a player looks at it is boring."

You must therefore be asserting it is boring for somebody.

For a player who isn't looking at it? Who is it boring for?

*Lurker mode off*

My players have told it me it's boring for them if sections of the world are static when they aren't engaged with them. Different players have expressed it differently over the years, but that is the gist.

*Lurker mode engaged*