D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

[Mistwell]

Its out of whack with those assumptions though. Look at class functions like the hunter bonus damage, +2 damage off the duelist fighting style, the clerics bonus dice of damage at level 8. Even spells as class features hunters quarry and hex.

You've played probably more games than anyone I've ever met, and possibly more than anyone else on this message board. So you tell me - have you found that Great Weapon Master, "simply can't be allowed to remain?" Have you found that it, "destroys the fundamental assumptions of the game," in a way that is so meaningful that you've had to change the rules to accommodate it?

Because I think there is an argument of degree here. I think it's fair to say this feat is on the high end of the scale of power in the game, without going so far as to say it breaks the game down and simply cannot be allowed. I think that's a pretty important distinction.

 

[LapBandit]

I love these recurring threads. People are totally chill with a 3rd level Fireball that could hit 20-odd creatures for 8d6 but flip their when a character willing to risk life and limb in melee hits hard.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I'm thinking a lot about mechanics today. Sorry. That's what days off do.

In one of the longer 5E games I've had going, one of the players is a Barbarian with Great Weapon Master. On paper, -5 to hit for +10 damage seemed fine to me (especially since it costs an ASI, so it's more like -6 to hit for +9 damage):

+7 to hit, 1d12+4 damage vs AC 15 (65% hit) is 7.15 damage
+2 to hit, 1d12+14 damage vs AC 15 (40% hit) is 8.525 damage
+8 to hit, 1d12+5 damage vs AC 15 (70% hit) is 8.375 damage (And yes, there's the cleave portion, but +2 Str also gets you ability checks, saves, and carrying capacity).

It's real issue would be once someone already has Str 20, but that's fine; that's what they want to focus on.

Well, that's what I thought. Then the barbarian had it with their Reckless Attack. 40% to hit turns into 64% to hit, so basically no penalty. Yes, it means he's very vulnerable to attack after, but he's taking half damage so it doesn't matter if he takes twice as many hits. Also, his foes are usually dead after 1 or 2 attacks at 1d12+14.

Today, I had an idea that I was curious about. What if, instead of GWM being -5 to hit for +10 damage, it was Disadvantage for +10 damage (with the caveat that you cannot use it while you have disadvantage). Or would that take away the fun image of someone "power attacking" while blinded because they might as well swing for the fences?

The -5/+10 mechanic is broken for a number of reasons, frankly dont know how it got through playtesting. Best solution is to make GWM a "half feat", delete the -5/+10 part and replace with +1 Str.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Enough people on this forum have defended the feat that I think it's probably OK, just not at low levels. I personally plan on waiting to take it until at least 8th level to avoid giving my DM headaches.

 

[Jester David]

I limit the -5/+10 to once per turn. It's still good, but more restrained.

 

[S'mon]

I love these recurring threads. People are totally chill with a 3rd level Fireball that could hit 20-odd creatures for 8d6 but flip their when a character willing to risk life and limb in melee hits hard.

I basically agree - IME doing tons of single target damage never breaks 5e. A caster can easily take out any non-legendary single target with a spell or two anyway, or can take out a large number of targets with area-effect spells.

It's easy to make a martial PC an order of magnitude more effective than another martial PC, but the full casters are still much more powerful.

 

[discosoc]

The -x/+y component to GWM and SS doesn't really work well with 5e math, and both seem to have been included for legacy reasons more than anything else. But, like a lot of 5e, they were victims of some pretty bad (or very little) playtesting.

 

[redrick]

We've had this and sharpshooter in our games and not had it be a game-breaker. As a DM, I find the "ignore all penalties from cover" clause of Sharpshooter to be much more disruptive than the -5/+10. I think the fact that your Barbarian is always attacking at advantage, with minimal penalty, is the bigger issue. You need to look at why your Barbarian feels comfortable attacking recklessly all the time.

Does your Barbarian ever run out of rages? My last player character was a barbarian, and rages would either run out before we were ready to long rest, or I would have to conserve rages and not use them in certain fights.

What about larger groups of enemies? Reckless attack is less appealing when you are granting advantage to attacks from multiple enemies, and the +10 damage bonus is less efficient when some of it is going to overkill on finishing off small foes.

I know these feats aren't perfect, and if you want to nerf them or kill them, that's the DM's call, but I don't think the system intends to have a PC reliably attack with advantage every round without consequences. I'd say, try exploiting that reckless attack before you house-rule the feat.

 

[Zardnaar]

You've played probably more games than anyone I've ever met, and possibly more than anyone else on this message board. So you tell me - have you found that Great Weapon Master, "simply can't be allowed to remain?" Have you found that it, "destroys the fundamental assumptions of the game," in a way that is so meaningful that you've had to change the rules to accommodate it?

Because I think there is an argument of degree here. I think it's fair to say this feat is on the high end of the scale of power in the game, without going so far as to say it breaks the game down and simply cannot be allowed. I think that's a pretty important distinction.

Its probably not game warping bad and it takes a while to get online say level 6-12 depending on class and tace. Its not as bad as say Sharpshooter which is even worse.

We have kind of stopped using it anyway for us its so 2015 or 2014. We're starting to use 3pp feats or trying out new things as I am the DM and kinda indirectly nerfed vianot handing out much in the way of magical polearms, hand crossbows or great weapons. ATM we have a dex based party and they have found things like Shortsword of Speed and Staff of Striking so going back to more OSR type gaming where you get lots of magic spears, staves, longswords, short swords daggers things like that.

 

[Xeviat]

We've had this and sharpshooter in our games and not had it be a game-breaker. As a DM, I find the "ignore all penalties from cover" clause of Sharpshooter to be much more disruptive than the -5/+10. I think the fact that your Barbarian is always attacking at advantage, with minimal penalty, is the bigger issue. You need to look at why your Barbarian feels comfortable attacking recklessly all the time.

Does your Barbarian ever run out of rages? My last player character was a barbarian, and rages would either run out before we were ready to long rest, or I would have to conserve rages and not use them in certain fights.

He feels comfortable recklessly attacking whenever A) he thinks he's going to kill something with those two attacks at +10 damage, B) he's raging and thus takes half damage from basically everything, or C) he's doing his job as a tank and is intentionally drawing fire.

And sure he runs out of rages. But he's a veteran player and tends to conserve them for when he needs to wreck house. He feels like the -5/+10 is necessary for the barbarian to function offensively; otherwise, they don't hit particularly harder than anyone else, they're just more accurate.


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