Judgement calls vs "railroading"

It seems like the conversation with [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION] and this post and another post by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] (regarding how the GM is constained in affecting the fiction in classic D&D turn-based combat due action economy and the prescriptive, binary nature of most actions) may have sorted this out. But if it hasn't, here is another effort.

In one (small with respect to scale and scope) Dungeon World combat the result of PC moves yielded the following:

Outright success * 2
Success with danger * 2
Success with a prescribed worst outcome * 1
Success with a worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice * 3
Hard failure * 1

These are just the reactive moves I have to make. This doesn't even take into account my initial framing (collection of soft moves in establishing the situation) and proactive soft moves I would need to make in the course of play to give effect to my NPCs/obstacles and follow the fiction.

Just those alone and you have 5 reactive moves that don't just allow, but require, a significant amount of creativity on the GM's part to (a) follow the fiction, (b) fill the character's lives with adventure, (c) think dangerous, and (d) create interesting decision-points/trees for the players. These aren't in the least bit prescriptive or binary. Each one of these probably entails a menu of 6-12 options (depending on how prolific/creative the GM is coupled with the NPC/Obstacle moves/Instincts, coupled with how constraining the present fictional positioning is) that the GM must collate and decide upon a winner. Then you have the singular Hard failure where the options are either opened up or further constrained depending on the situation.

Contrast with the binary, prescriptive nature of classic D&D combat saving throws and the overwhelming majority of action declarations and their attendant resolution? There is no comparison. The creative burden and the creative (but principally constrained) latitude for a Dungeon World GM is overwhelmingly more significant.

If anything, the pressure and demands of this improvisational cognitive burden (creating dynamic, principled fiction with interesting/dynamic decision-points while simultaneously coherently addressing the premise the players' have flagged as important/relevant to their PCs) is the break-point for many classic D&D GMs who try their hand at Dungeon World and other PBtA games (see my post a few above this).

I've known many that just flat can't do it. I've known others that can do it in short bursts but anything more is exhausting.

Again I'll just say I see it differently... I feel it's constraining and most of the demand on creativity is because of said constraints. I don't think it requires more creativity only a very specific kind at a very specific time determined wholly at random. Your description above is IMO comparable to two artists... one who can draw whatever he wants within broad confines like landscapes (success or failure) vs. one who must quickly and randomly draw within narrow categories mountains, a lake, a forest, a clearing (outright success, success with danger, success with a...). I don't think you can tell which artist has the most creativity though I do think the artist drawing a landscape has less constraints than the one drawing specific landscapes. I don't agree that putting restraints on creativity and forcing someone to randomly and quickly create within them speaks to having or allowing more creativity it just speaks to who does and who doesn't work well in said constraints... and yes I feel being told what you must shape your fiction around at that detailed a level is more of a constraint than what is usually placed on a DM or player in a round of D&D combat.
 

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I am fine with leaving an NPC's actual motivations unknown, and only establishing them once it makes sense to do so, and in a way that makes sense for the story. I am just aware that doing this is along the lines of illusionism.
What's the illusion? As in, in whay way is the GM deceiving the players, or pretending to do things one way while really doing them another?

pemerton said:
In the real world, people act based on the information they have. In the RPG, the players act on the information they have. So from the point of view of PC habitation, there's no issue.
Well, in the real world, people tend to have motivations all along....they don't spring into existence at the convenience of story. Or drama or going where the action is or whatever label you want to put on it.

And I'd also say that the whole "from the point of the PCs, there's no issue" argument is pretty much exactly what people say in defense of illusionism.
The motivation doesn't "spring into existence" - as I said, it's concrete and there all along. It's just that no one in the real world knows yet what it is, because it hasn't been authored yet.

Authorship is not an event that occurs in the fiction.

And I didn't say "from the point of view of the PCs, there's no issue". I said "from the point of view of PC habitation, there's no issue" - that is a comment about the players, and their "habitation" of their PCs. At least in my experience, illusionism creates significant issues with PC habitation, because of its effect on the capacity of the player to impose his/her will on the fiction (ie, from the point of view of the PC, the world) by way of action declaration. This is not an issue in CoC, which is supposed to produce a feeling of humanity having no control over the cosmos, but is an issue in other games which rest on a different, more action-adventure, premise.

I find the idea of the players introducing solutions to the story entirely on their own to be troublesome. Not to say that it can't be done effectively and fairly...I'm sure it can. But I think it can also be abused. Or lead to some less interesting or dramatic resolutions to the problems the PCs find themselves in.
Do you have examples in mind?

Whether or not you do, here's a whole range of ways that standard D&D PCs (at least the spell-using ones) can "introduce solutions to the story entirely on their own" which in the right context are as effective as discovering a secret door: Stone Shape, Knock, Passwall, Dimension Door, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, Dig, Move Earth, Ehterealness, Shadow Walk, Disintegratem and probably others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

I'm not sure why the capacity to make a Citadel-wise or Architecture check is going to break the game in a fashion that those spells don't.

I would also reiterate - the problems the PCs find themselves in does not denote some fixed quantity of situations. Equally, there is no fixed quantity of interest or drama. If you consider the GMing principles I have cited from very sources, you will see that they emphasise the role of the GM in framing the PC (and thereby the players) into circumstances that - in virtue of the complications/challenges present - force choices. For whatever reason (Luke Crane doesn't tell us) the PCs want to enter the fortress. That is a challenge. But it's not the only one. Complication, and the forcing of choices, can happen on the other side of a secret door as easily as on this side of one.
 

I feel being told what you must shape your fiction around at that detailed a level is more of a constraint than what is usually placed on a DM or player in a round of D&D combat.
Can you elaborate on the nature of the creativity that you think is available to a player or a GM in a typical round of D&D combat?
 

Judgement call: "Decking the queen? In front of her entire army? Yeah, you're going to want this blank character sheet..."

Railroading: "What's that? You want to explore that hamlet rather than continue to the city? Roll Constitution... Congrats! You survived the five hour beating a group of druids delivered unto you for daring to step into their sacred forest!"
 

PCs have to deal with rather than bypass; and there are only certain legitimate ways to deal with that challenge - finding a secret door is not one of them!

If there is a secret door, what other options are there but to find it or not?

But, as I replied to Lanefan, if the game is being run in the style described by Eero Tuovinen's "standard narrativistic model", or the GMing instructions I quoted not far upthread from the BW rulebooks, then that assumption doesn't hold good. The GM's job is to "go where the action is" and to introduce complications that force players to make choices. I can do that whether or not the PCs find a secret door.

So I'm reading Eero's Standard Narrativistic Model (https://isabout.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/the-pitfalls-of-narrative-technique-in-rpg-play/) and he seems to specifically be promoting a GM-driven game:

"These games are tremendously fun, and they form a very discrete family of games wherein many techniques are interchangeable between the games. The most important common trait these games share is the GM authority over backstory and dramatic coordination (I talk of these two extensively in Solar System, which is also a game of this ilk), which powers the GM uses to put the player characters into pertinent choice situations. Can you see how this underlying fundamental structure is undermined by undiscretionary use of narrative sharing?"

His specific point, supported by all of the analysis before the outline of his structure, is that in order to have a "Story Now" game, the GM must have control over the story.

His further elaboration seems to specifically support the sort of game I like to run:

"The fun in these games from the player’s viewpoint comes from the fact that he can create an amazing story with nothing but choices made in playing his character; this is the holy grail of rpg design, this is exactly the thing that was promised to me in 1992 in the MERP rulebook. And it works, but only as long as you do not require the player to take part in determining the backstory and moments of choice. If the player character is engaged in a deadly duel with the evil villain of the story, you do not ask the player to determine whether it would be “cool” if the villain were revealed to be the player character’s father. The correct heuristic is to throw out the claim of fatherhood if it seems like a challenging revelation for the character, not ask the player whether he’s OK with it – asking him is the same as telling him to stop considering the scene in terms of what his character wants and requiring him to take an objective stance on what is “best for the story”. Consensus is a poor tool in driving excitement, a roleplaying game does not have teeth if you stop to ask the other players if it’s OK to actually challenge their characters."

That the "holy grail of RPG design" is that the player's viewpoint is that the entire game is based around "nothing by choices made in playing his character."

By this measure, that the player is always in character, and making decisions as that character, then the methods the DM uses to present the world, events, encounters, etc. are irrelevant. I see it as going to a movie - I don't really care what technology, what cameras or techniques, or how many scriptwriters there were, etc. The finished product is what matters.

Yes, after the movie (or after the game) I love to dig and see if we can figure out what makes it such a great experience. And while I understand how certain players object to things like illusionism, fudging, or many other techniques, my assertion is that is has far more to do with how the DM handled (or mishandled) those tools than the tools themselves.

But without even going into the more controversial tools, I think Eero's Model has some contradictions. If one of the roles is to:

"frame scenes according to dramatic needs (that is, go where the action is) and provoke thematic moments (defined in narrativistic theory as moments of in-character action that carry weight as commentary on the game’s premise) by introducing complications."

Then how can the story be "nothing by choices made by playing (the) character?" As soon as the DM fades to black at the end of one framed scene, then fades up on the next scene, you've removed a big chunk of player decisions from the game. Sure, it might make for a great story, but it's now the DM's story, not the PC's.

Where I think this theory is wrong is in not allowing the player to determine the "moments of choice." I totally agree that you should not "ask the player to determine whether it would be “cool” if the villain were revealed to be the player character’s father." And if all he's talking about is deciding as the DM when to reveal information like this, then I'm fine with it.

It's really his procedural description that I have some issue with, particularly the bolded selection:

"The actual procedure of play is very simple: once the players have established concrete characters, situations and backstory in whatever manner a given game ascribes, the GM starts framing scenes for the player characters. Each scene is an interesting situation in relation to the premise of the setting or the character (or wherever the premise comes from, depends on the game). The GM describes a situation that provokes choices on the part of the character. The player is ready for this, as he knows his character and the character’s needs, so he makes choices on the part of the character. This in turn leads to consequences as determined by the game’s rules. Story is an outcome of the process as choices lead to consequences which lead to further choices, until all outstanding issues have been resolved and the story naturally reaches an end."

His holy grail is that the players can make decisions entirely as the characters (which I agree 100% with), but then takes away some of that ability to make decisions by instructing the DM to frame the scenes, and implying that the only scenes that should remain are those that is "interesting" in "relation to the premise of the setting or character."

But the only people that should be deciding whether it's interesting or not is the players. While my description of the private detective was, in part, to show how the framing can lead the action (instead of "going to the action"), it also removed many opportunities for the character to do something different. In my example he still ended up at the grocery store to pick up a few things for his wife. But in the game play he may have opted to do something else altogether, specifically because he decided something was important, even if the DM didn't think so.

I can't tell you how many games I've seen where a DM was running a published or pre-planned adventure, and the DM had put something of great importance in front of the PCs, only for them to completely ignore it and go someplace else entirely. Many years ago I figured out that the stories were much more interesting (and "authentic") if they were driven by the PCs and not me, the DM. That's why I focus on the backstory and setting, all the things that are happening around the PCs, and let them decide what's important.

I get it, we have a lot less time to play than we used to. So the idea of skipping ahead (which we still do, in agreement rather than DM decision), is tempting. Because you think you're spending time on something that's not important and boring. But most of the time we find that if we just stick with it, there is plenty of interesting things that happen that greatly enrich the game, and wouldn't have happened if we skipped ahead.

So there are two aspects to what I see as framing a scene. Yes - the description of the situation, what's there and where, is technically framing the scene. My objection is with the technique where the game is separated into distinct scenes where the DM decides when one scene ends and when (and where) the next one begins.

The only place where I think Eero misses is that the players should be in control of the story. The DM is in control of the world and everything except the PCs within it. In some cases this includes story (Vader is your father). But in most cases, the story is in control of the players and is a direct result of the choices they make in character.
 

In which case this tells me one or more of several things:

1. You're looking too hard at it and-or maybe taking it too seriously, rather than just relaxing and enjoying the game for what it is
2. You're expecting the game to be about how the world interacts with the PCs (sun revolves around the earth) rather than how the PCs interact with the world (earth revolves around the sun)
3. The DM is doing it wrong - were it being done well the players' hooks etc. would be seamlessly incorporated into her story such that you couldn't tell how they were interwoven

RE point 1 above, in fictional gameworlds the sun may very well revolve around the earth(or other planet)(or the world might be flat or whatever). IMO some of the RPGs being discussed are intended to make the game about the way the world interacts with the PCs.

Re point 3 above, I disagree that seamless incorporation is always possible, and even if it was, how the DM makes decisions is very important to some players. Whenever DM decision making is based whole or in part on criteria that violate the formal or informal social contract of the group, players can have legitimate grievances.
 

Can you elaborate on the nature of the creativity that you think is available to a player or a GM in a typical round of D&D combat?

I can pretty much describe my success or failure however I want, as long as I respect the fiction and don't assume it took the opponent out of the combat... unless of course the opponent was taken to zero hit points then even that doesn't apply.
 
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Again I'll just say I see it differently... I feel it's constraining and most of the demand on creativity is because of said constraints. I don't think it requires more creativity only a very specific kind at a very specific time determined wholly at random. Your description above is IMO comparable to two artists... one who can draw whatever he wants within broad confines like landscapes (success or failure) vs. one who must quickly and randomly draw within narrow categories mountains, a lake, a forest, a clearing (outright success, success with danger, success with a...). I don't think you can tell which artist has the most creativity though I do think the artist drawing a landscape has less constraints than the one drawing specific landscapes. I don't agree that putting restraints on creativity and forcing someone to randomly and quickly create within them speaks to having or allowing more creativity it just speaks to who does and who doesn't work well in said constraints... and yes I feel being told what you must shape your fiction around at that detailed a level is more of a constraint than what is usually placed on a DM or player in a round of D&D combat.

I can pretty much describe my success or failure however I want, as long as I respect the fiction and don't assume it took the opponent out of the combat... unless of course the opponent was taken to zero hit points then even that doesn't apply.

I've read what you've written here but its entirely inconsistent with both my experience in classic D&D vs Dungeon World and (what I would think) the conception that someone would get from the comparative texts if they just read them and didn't actually play them.

So let us try this.

Give me a heroic fantasy combat encounter replete with (a) the general context of the situation and (b) the fictional elements of (general info like classes and levels) PCs, obstacles (NPC adversaries, hazards/traps et al), and battlefield/terrain dynamics.

I'll give you the abstract of how I see its potential iterations playing out in 5e versus Dungeon World (from procedures/resolution to outcomes). You can then critique it and tell me where I'm wrong.
 

I've read what you've written here but its entirely inconsistent with both my experience in classic D&D vs Dungeon World and (what I would think) the conception that someone would get from the comparative texts if they just read them and didn't actually play them.

So let us try this.

Give me a heroic fantasy combat encounter replete with (a) the general context of the situation and (b) the fictional elements of (general info like classes and levels) PCs, obstacles (NPC adversaries, hazards/traps et al), and battlefield/terrain dynamics.

I'll give you the abstract of how I see its potential iterations playing out in 5e versus Dungeon World (from procedures/resolution to outcomes). You can then critique it and tell me where I'm wrong.

That sounds fair enough. I probably won't get a chance to do this until sometime tomorrow though... also, though you state classic D&D in the post above, I've been clear to specify that it is 5e that I am speaking to.
 

I can pretty much describe my success or failure however I want, as long as I respect the fiction
You can't describe your success or failure in terms of someone falling down (because prone modifiers aren't activated), in terms of someone being wrongfooted (because no martial mind-control forced movement), in terms of disarming (because that's a separate mechanical state), and in AD&D not even in terms of spinning someone around (because that would violate the facing rules).

Depending on table conventions, you may also not be able to describe significant physical injury, as there are no debilitating consequences as a result.

And, furthermore, it's all just colour, because D&D combat resolution has no regard to that sort of fictional positioning. Whether I describe the 5 hp I dealt as a wound or as reducing fighting spirit has no affect on subsequent resolution.
 

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