D&D 5E Assumptions on Hit Points and Armor Class...

ccs

41st lv DM
I've seen this sort of thing playing out in Dragon Magazine since the early 80's.

Entire game systems have been created in an attempt to make more sense of it. Many, many different ideas, that each came along, crashed against the bulwark of tradition, and broke - along with the hearts of their creators.

So, you're not alone. :)

It's not tradition that broke those ideas.
It's the fact that all of them were just pointless. This stuff is allready abstracted in a nice easy to use fashion. Sure, you'd THINK there'd be some more elegant way to express it. But there's not. Perfect (sounding)? No. But you instantly understand the idea these two mechanics are expressing.
Anything else is just fiddliness aimed at being different from D&D for A) the sake of being different, B) keeping TSR from suing you back in the day.

Personally? I'm not going to waste the effort reinventing the wheel when I want to play D&D.
 

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schnee

First Post
It's not tradition that broke those ideas.
It's the fact that all of them were just pointless. This stuff is allready abstracted in a nice easy to use fashion. Sure, you'd THINK there'd be some more elegant way to express it. But there's not. Perfect (sounding)? No. But you instantly understand the idea these two mechanics are expressing.
Anything else is just fiddliness aimed at being different from D&D for A) the sake of being different, B) keeping TSR from suing you back in the day.

Personally? I'm not going to waste the effort reinventing the wheel when I want to play D&D.

Eh, I think they pulled in enough 'non-healer class healing' that scales with character level that I think they've largely mitigated the issue with 5E.

Not entirely, but IMO pushing it further risks poking the '4E edition backlash' bear. So, I credit them for how much they've done with Hit Dice, good healing feats, Bard stuff, etc. so it works for me.
 
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ccs

41st lv DM
Eh, I think they pulled in enough 'non-healer class healing' that scales with character level that I think they've largely mitigated the issue with 5E.

Not entirely, but IMO pushing it further risks poking the '4E edition backlash' bear. So, I credit them for how much they've done with Hit Dice, good healing feats, Bard stuff, etc. so it works for me.

(shrugs) Healing options aside, 5e didn't waste time trying to redefine AC & HP.
It's still as simple as it ever was:
AC: # needed to score a hit.
HP: Drop to zero & you're down.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I think the real issue I've always had is that a 1st level character healed up instantly to brand new with one tiny, low-powered spell, but a higher level character took multiple days to heal up using much more powerful magic.

Shouldn't it be that a higher level character in fact got less wounded, because they were so much more experienced, skilled, aware, lucky, etcetera? And in fact they should heal either at the same rate, or maybe even faster, because their wounds/aches/pains are each so little in comparison, since each one is such a small proportion of their overall hit point total? Wouldn't that mean that a 1st level fighter taking 8hp of damage took one hit from a sword that almost killed them, and a 10th level fighter taking 8hp just took a hard hit on their shield that bruised their arm a little, would involve such little injury that a Cure Light Wounds would in fact do more healing on a higher level character?

Past a certain point, it just doesn't make sense, in the same way a Gelatinous Cube doesn't make sense. (A cube, that ... rolls?)

The easiest fix for this is to change healing to do either a percentage of hp, or be related to the number of Hit Dice a character has. For example, a cure light wounds cures xd4 hit points, with x=number of hit dice. Or by percentage is is cure light wounds heals 2d6% of hit points. So if you roll a 9, it heals 9% of your maximum hit points.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
This was really more an exercise in thinking outside of the box. Yes, I understand the D&D Sacred Cow Holy Trinity (6 Classic Attributes/AC/HP): With These, We, The Masses, Shall Not Tinker. And yes, I'm sure there ARE other games out there that complicate the hell out of things. I wouldn't know. Haven't played em. I like D&D just the way she is, but surely there's nothing wrong with poking the status quo with a big stick, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh, I poke. Boy do I poke.

The Unearthed Arcana that had a vitality system is a pretty popular solution from over the years. Basically you have hit points, which represent thinks like skill, luck, stamina, and such, and you have vitality points, which are actual health.

But the issue for me hasn't been the healing rate, etc., it has always been that you can have 150 hp, or 1 hp, and there's no difference on your ability to function.

The 5e rules made this super simple for me to tweak, but it's not for everybody. I use an injury system based on the exhaustion track. You recover using the death saving throw mechanic, but you get only one save at the end of a long rest. So an injury will last for at least several days.

Of course, this also required altering the healing system.

I've gone much farther - Armor is a combination of AC and certain resistances depending on type, and a system similar to the UA system that makes attacks a contest. It's not always a contest, but you can opt to parry an attack directly. In addition, each round you have your STR and DEX modifiers that you apply to an attack or AC. You can split it anyway you'd like.

Hit points max out between 8th and 12th level depending on race (Constitution bonuses still apply at levels higher than that).

So you can decide how much you want to tinker. Just be aware that any system like a vitality system does greatly alter the game, particularly at higher levels, since it bypasses hit points entirely. You can have 150 hp, but with my injury system you only have 6 levels of injury. You do get saving throws to avoid them (usually - falling gets tougher the farther you fall). It makes for a very different type of game.

Since AD&D, there hasn't been an easier version of D&D to tweak in terms of rules, although 4e made it really, really easy to swap out effects and such.

But you'll also start to find how intertwined everything is within the rules. Before you start tweaking, you really need to start to figure out what it is that bothers you about the rules. Not understanding AC and hp is one thing, but doesn't really point you toward a solution.

For me, one thing that bothered me about 5e (and this is fairly consistent across all editions), is that crucial scenes don't work within the rules. For example, in the first two adventures released for 5e, there are NPCs that ask the PCs for help because they are too injured to do it themselves. OK, why don't we just heal them? Problem solved. Other things include stuff like combat fatigue, the effects of wounds on your ability to fight, the effects of pain, etc.

I always look to see if there is really a need to change it first. For example, when 5e first came out, I hated the idea of the characters healing fully during a long rest. So I looked at alternatives. In AD&D it was 1 hp per day of rest for up to 7 days, after which you'd subtract a CON penalty if any. Starting in the second week you add your CON bonus if any to the 1 hp. Note that's per day of rest, not a long rest.

But the game is geared towards faster healing now, to keep things moving. So I then looked at allowing them to regain 1/2 their hit points during a long rest. And what did that achieve? It basically meant that after the first day, their new maximum hit points was half of what it used to be. In other words, whatever amount you set, that's the amount that they have to assume they have on any given day. In which case it's just figuring out what you think is reasonable, and I ended up back with not changing anything.

Because it wasn't really the fact that they were healing their hit points every day. It was because they never suffered any long term effects, because they never suffered anything other than being "uninjured" and dying. So instead I started looking at how to impact their ability to act, over different periods of time. One encounter, a few hours, a day, and multiple days. All use the same exhaustion track. Combat fatigue might kick in when you're below 50% max hit points. You make a save each round, or suffer the effects. You can't die, but you can suffer fatigue. Combat fatigue lasts until the end of the combat. Fatigue you have to rest for at least 15 minutes to regain a level. If you suffer enough fatigue, you are exhausted, which works more or less as written.

So there are tons of options. You just have to figure out what you and your players are really looking for.
 

Or by percentage is is cure light wounds heals 2d6% of hit points. So if you roll a 9, it heals 9% of your maximum hit points.
The problem with that is it makes low-level healing magic worthless for low-level characters. Even if you just did straight scaling, so Cure Wounds recovers 10% of max HP per spell slot level, it means that a level 1 cleric is spending their highest-level spell slot in order to heal a level 1 fighter of one damage.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
The problem with that is it makes low-level healing magic worthless for low-level characters. Even if you just did straight scaling, so Cure Wounds recovers 10% of max HP per spell slot level, it means that a level 1 cleric is spending their highest-level spell slot in order to heal a level 1 fighter of one damage.

It takes some tweaking, but yes. For example, you can also set a minimum such as 1d8 plus a percentage if you have more than 1 HD.

I don't use that type of system myself, so I don't have a specific calculation to offer. But here's something a bit more thought out. Since healing is generally a variable, this uses dice:

Cure Wounds/healing potion
1d8 + spellcasting modifier + 1d2 for each Hit Die/level of the target over 1.
At Higher levels: Increase the die type: d4, then d6, then d8, etc.
 

Hussar

Legend
(shrugs) Healing options aside, 5e didn't waste time trying to redefine AC & HP.
It's still as simple as it ever was:
AC: # needed to score a hit.
HP: Drop to zero & you're down.

That's not entirely true. 5e does specify the difference between being above and below 1/2 hp. You do not have any wounds visible when you are above 1/2 hp.

All arguments about how a hit is always a physical wound got shot down as soon as the 5e phb was printed.

Now we're just left with folks not bothering to actually RTFM.
 

That's not entirely true. 5e does specify the difference between being above and below 1/2 hp. You do not have any wounds visible when you are above 1/2 hp.

All arguments about how a hit is always a physical wound got shot down as soon as the 5e phb was printed.

Now we're just left with folks not bothering to actually RTFM.

Would this be in the sidebar that starts with "Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways."?
 

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