D&D 5E Assumptions on Hit Points and Armor Class...

[i_dont_meta]

This came to me this evening: what are "Hit Points" and what is "Armor Class"? Now bear with me, I'm not sure I've completely thought this thru. But long story short: how can Dexterity give you a similar bonus to AC as, say, Chain Mail? Actual Attributes notwithstanding, but it seems as if one's ability to evade an attack (Dex AC modifier) is equated to one's ability to abstain from injury (Chain Mail absorbs the hit) and to me this seems like comparing eeple's and baneenee's. What if Armor instead granted you Temp HP instead? And so when you use Hit Dice to "heal" you could actually just be doing routine Armor maintenance. Seems radical to an old grognard like me, but it somehow makes so much more sense. I don't know.


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[Horwath]

This came to me this evening: what are "Hit Points" and what is "Armor Class"? Now bear with me, I'm not sure I've completely thought this thru. But long story short: how can Dexterity give you a similar bonus to AC as, say, Chain Mail? Actual Attributes notwithstanding, but it seems as if one's ability to evade an attack (Dex AC modifier) is equated to one's ability to abstain from injury (Chain Mail absorbs the hit) and to me this seems like comparing eeple's and baneenee's. What if Armor instead granted you Temp HP instead? And so when you use Hit Dice to "heal" you could actually just be doing routine Armor maintenance. Seems radical to an old grognard like me, but it somehow makes so much more sense. I don't know.


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Just simplify it.

Missed attack to AC just from dex is simple dodge, you moved out of the way.

With AC from chainmail the blow connected but just glanced off the armor.

To get a hit, weapon must bypass the armor.

But, HPs are an abstraction at best so you can describe hit/miss any way you want.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

HP is a mix of many things. They just define how close you are to dropping unconscious. Low HP does not necessarily mean you are badly wounded, it could also mean you are about to run out of luck that attacks against you never hit any vital spots.

AC just means how likely it is that you get hit by an attack. If an attack misses the DM best narrates it in a way that makes sense. Some speedy fighter with light armor probably just dodges the attack, but a fighter with a heavy armor just lets the attack get deflected by his armor. Someone with a shield might block the attack with that.

 

[Lanliss]

It is tied to HP being ambiguous, I think. Because HP can represent "luck", you can prevent losing luck by dodging on purpose, hence Dex being added to AC. Stronger armors replace this skill with a solid foundation, allowing you to bear the brunt of attacks despite not actually avoiding them. Of course, this means that a "Miss" in game terms could still be a narrative "hit" on your armor, while a "Hit" in game terms can be a Narrative miss. Doesn't bother me, personally, but I can see it bugging someone.

On your houserule, it would need to be a substantial number of temp HP. You never roll to hit again, but instead only roll damage. As a result, you need to figure out a general average number for how much HP a given AC normally defends. For example, assume a 15 AC protects a 1st level adventurer from 7 1d6(4) hits per short rest. So, the 15 AC would be replaced with the equation
[Level*average damage*Number of hits]=28 temp hp.

Of course, that is completely arbitrary on my part. My point is, you need to find out what equation you would use to decide how much temp HP. Thinking about it a bit harder, [Level+1*AC] seems like an alright area. A 15 AC would then provide 30 HP bonus for a first level character, but more for a progressively more skilled character. This would make abilities that give resistance, like Rage, much stronger, since it effectively doubles the power of armor vs. non-magical attacks. A bear totem barbarian, at 3rd level with an AC of 17 would basically have 68 extra health, doubled as long as they are not fighting psychic damage. That said, I actually like this thought, thanks for putting it in my head.

EDIT: To continue, you would still need to roll, but any result other than 20 or 1 can be treated as dealing damage, maybe even adding your roll to hit to the damage received. A 1 can be treated as a complete miss, while a 20 doubles/maximizes damage as normal for a given table. I am liking this thought more. I might come back and post another response when I have put more thought in.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Hit Points are your ability to withstand injury without falling unconscious or dying. We know for a fact that, if you take damage, then you are physically injured in some way (and there is blood in the water - sharks have advantage on further attacks against you). We don't know the degree of physical injury - whether it's a bloody nose or a broken rib - and that sort of thing is expected to vary by DM.

Armor Class is your ability to not suffer injury when someone attacks you. If an attack fails to hit your AC, then we know for a fact that either the attack missed you, or it hit in such a way that you weren't injured by it (because it was deflected or absorbed by your armor). We don't know which of those things happened for certain, in most cases, but it also doesn't really matter.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Oddly enough, a googling yielded this for me...

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-history-of-hit-points/

 

[Li Shenron]

Actual Attributes notwithstanding, but it seems as if one's ability to evade an attack (Dex AC modifier) is equated to one's ability to abstain from injury (Chain Mail absorbs the hit) and to me this seems like comparing eeple's and baneenee's.

In D&D armor has never represented absorbing the hit, but rather covering targettable spots. That's why armor is equivalent to shield, actual solid cover, and dexterity. [Hint: full plate armor is not necessarily thicker, it just tries to cover everything head-to-toe]

HP damage is explained to represent a variety of effects, not only injuries. Once these effects are considered together, HP total becomes the representation of one's general ability to resist cumulative effects, before passing out and risking death. (There exist however other effects which bypass HP and can cause unconsciousness or death immediately - just because a lot of effects are represented by HP loss, doesn't mean EVERY effect is).

So within these concept, the capability of absorbing the hits is intrinsically represented by HP (including temporary HP), although there is also damage resistance as an additional representation, for a few characters and monsters.

 

[Shiroiken]

AC represents your ability to either dodge or deflect impact. Dex helps with dodging, while Heavy Armor simply tries to absorb the shock and prevent injury. There has been discussion that technically it would be better to have armor provide damage reduction, but this would be a radical change to the base assumptions to the game (making it "not D&D" to some).

As for HP, they can represent a lot of things, and has always been an abstract concept. I personally consider it to be stamina/endurance in 5E. You get bludgeoned, burnt, poisoned, psychically assaulted, but still manage to push on. When you run out of HP, then you collapse, unable to take any more punishment. With 5E's full refresh on a Long Rest, this makes the most sense to me.

 

[schnee]

This came to me this evening: what are "Hit Points" and what is "Armor Class"? Now bear with me, I'm not sure I've completely thought this thru. But long story short: how can Dexterity give you a similar bonus to AC as, say, Chain Mail? Actual Attributes notwithstanding, but it seems as if one's ability to evade an attack (Dex AC modifier) is equated to one's ability to abstain from injury (Chain Mail absorbs the hit) and to me this seems like comparing eeple's and baneenee's. What if Armor instead granted you Temp HP instead? And so when you use Hit Dice to "heal" you could actually just be doing routine Armor maintenance. Seems radical to an old grognard like me, but it somehow makes so much more sense. I don't know.

I've seen this sort of thing playing out in Dragon Magazine since the early 80's.

Entire game systems have been created in an attempt to make more sense of it. Many, many different ideas, that each came along, crashed against the bulwark of tradition, and broke - along with the hearts of their creators.

So, you're not alone.

I think the real issue I've always had is that a 1st level character healed up instantly to brand new with one tiny, low-powered spell, but a higher level character took multiple days to heal up using much more powerful magic.

Shouldn't it be that a higher level character in fact got less wounded, because they were so much more experienced, skilled, aware, lucky, etcetera? And in fact they should heal either at the same rate, or maybe even faster, because their wounds/aches/pains are each so little in comparison, since each one is such a small proportion of their overall hit point total? Wouldn't that mean that a 1st level fighter taking 8hp of damage took one hit from a sword that almost killed them, and a 10th level fighter taking 8hp just took a hard hit on their shield that bruised their arm a little, would involve such little injury that a Cure Light Wounds would in fact do more healing on a higher level character?

Past a certain point, it just doesn't make sense, in the same way a Gelatinous Cube doesn't make sense. (A cube, that ... rolls?)

 

[Warmaster Horus]

They are abstractions that are part of the game. Don't operationalize it too much or you'll go down the rabbit hole of tautology. Yes, you can make a combat system that is more realistic and yes it will be more complex and take longer to play. If that's what you like, feel free to play games with those mechanics. I do when I get the chance to and find people who can play them well. But to me the D&D abstraction works just fine for most of my RPG pleasure.