D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[billd91]

Guilty as charged. Drizz't took a perfectly good and useful class - Ranger - and butchered it. 3 editions later the class still hasn't recovered - if anything it's gotten worse - and until it does there will be no forgiveness.

None.

Lan-"Rangers are supposed to be high-endurance warriors, not glass-cannon blade-dancers"-efan

Kind of hard to lay that at Drizz't's feet. While they were both undoubtedly in production together, I believe it's the two-weapon 2e ranger that actually debuts to the public first.
That said, 3.5 finally gave us a functional ranger and PF extended that even farther. Not exactly the same flavor as the 1e ranger, but capable of holding his own in a campaign.

 

[cbwjm]

Unless I had some big overarching plot line involving an organisation in FR (or any established setting) I don't think I would even bother with checking a wiki. If it isn't in the books I do have access to then it is all free for me to put anything in.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

 

[Caliban]

CCS is a he... n_n

Didn't know, didn't care. Pretty sure I didn't refer to them in a gendered fashion in any case. Still don't care actually.

Everyone is a genderless entity on the other side of my screen until it matters if they are or are not. Since I'm unlikely to ever meet any of you in person, it's unlikely to matter.

All that matters is what you say and how you say it. Preferably on the topic of 5e.

 

[billd91]

Why aren't the PF boards full of people demanding new settings? Why aren't there "Why Golarion is hated?" threads? Seriously, why aren't people on Paizo's boards demanding APs that don't deal with Golarion, or refusing to buy books that say "X of Golarion" on them?

Because we're adults over there, you poopy-heads. NYYEAAAAHHHH!

 

[Maxperson]

Page 7 of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting offers us a full page on Elminister, 35th level character. Elsewhere it's easy to find a dozen examples of NPCs over 20th level. Taking the 3E Eberron Campaign Setting, I don't see any NPCs over 20th level, and I found a 3rd level cleric that's 20th level in his kingdom, and a 20th level awakened pine tree druid, but I think the rest I saw were under 15 and most under 10. Also, again page 7 of the FRCS is spent on Elminster, and many, many NPCs get a half-page or more to detail them, whereas for the ECS e.g. "(LN male hobgoblin, fighter 13)" suffices and then a paragraph about character. That is, 3E Eberron has no NPCs of such level the PCs may never reach, and does not present NPCs as a major thing about the setting, whereas the 3E FRCS does.

20th level is enough to "overshadow" the PCs as they rise from 1st level. If you're the type to go out of your way to feel overshadowed that is.

Likewise Golarion. Is there a single high-level good NPC in Golarion? I don't know of any. There are some named high-level to super high-level evil NPCs in the setting, but generally high-level PCs end up the only possible response to problems they're called to. And as for "I don't know of any", that's important, because I don't feel that NPCs I don't know about are overshadowing my PC.

Do you expect me to believe that you think every NPC is detailed in a setting? Or that you think that there would be no high level NPCs among those not detailed?

At the end of the Zeitgeist and original Dragonlance Adventure Paths, the PCs were clearly the most powerful people around and the only people who could make the necessary world-shaking changes. That's not true in FR; there will be multiple NPCs, Chosen of the Gods 10 levels above the PCs.

I don't know Zeitgeist, but that's simply not true about Dragonlance. Par Salian was 20th level white robes. Other NPCs held similar eminence. Nor is it true about FR where PCs can reach 35th or higher level and surpass Elminster who doesn't gain levels.

I read this when someone doesn't like something you do, you'll badger them until they admit they should like it.

You can read it however you like I really don't care if they like it or not.

 

[billd91]

D&D NEEDS a bog-standard, no-frills setting that highlights the rules and lore of the core game. Forgotten Realms really does fit that bill.

I hate to bring it up again, but take Golarion. Its a bog-standard world; complete with giant Metropolis, a fallen empire, evil nation controlled by devils, Transylvania, fantasy Egypt, proxies for Asia, Africa, and the Middle East, all surrounded by a poor-mans Great Wheel. And its All Pathfinder Has. Every AP deals with it. Every story happens there. Every sourcebook details it. All artwork references it. Pathfinder CAN be played without Golarion, but as far as Paizo is concerned, Golarion = Pathfinder.

And I rarely see any PF players complain about that. It boggles my mind.

The Forgotten Realms, in 5th edition at least, is D&D's Golarion. Its bog-standard, no frills world that has proxies for most cultures and settings, highlights everything in the core books, and is big enough to absorb (or at least tolerate) the best of D&D lore, even if its imported from other worlds. Heck, 5e has a lighter hand with FR than PF has with Golarion; at least 5e makes token references to thing beyond Faerun. Yet for some reason, the idea of a bog-standard world makes some people retch when it comes to D&D.

Why aren't the PF boards full of people demanding new settings? Why aren't there "Why Golarion is hated?" threads? Seriously, why aren't people on Paizo's boards demanding APs that don't deal with Golarion, or refusing to buy books that say "X of Golarion" on them?

D&D : Forgotten Realms :: Pathfinder : Golarion. Its the default setting for marketing and branding, the catch-all for whatever new stuff comes down the pipe, and the minimum standard for people too lazy or uninterested to use something else. That, IMHO, is a strength for both games.

For a somewhat more serious take, it's interesting that there are people on the PF boards who eschew the PF game and are just there to use the setting material and APs. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty of quibbling about specific content in the Golarion materials. There's more than enough to shake a stick at. But I think there may be a difference in the way message board participants approach the game compared to how people approach D&D. D&D's the 800 lb gorilla. If someone has experience playing any RPG, I'd bet a substantial majority has D&D experience as their primary RPG. It has been the recipient of every gamer's or amateur game designer's often-obsessive focus. It often represents all RPGs at once. It's the focus or foil of most of our game design theories, musings, rumination, and bullting. So every toxic tendency or conflict among RPGers plays out in D&D and its publications.

By comparison, Paizo is that adventure-writing game company that kept 3e-style D&D alive in its long-format adventures. It's got a focus and it's focus is lore, stories, adventures - the setting. Yes, that setting is pastiche, a hodgepodge, a kitchen sink and it gives the setting book and AP authors a tremendous diversity of adventure ideas and themes to keep things fresh.

 

[Caliban]

For a somewhat more serious take, it's interesting that there are people on the PF boards who eschew the PF game and are just there to use the setting material and APs. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty of quibbling about specific content in the Golarion materials. There's more than enough to shake a stick at. But I think there may be a difference in the way message board participants approach the game compared to how people approach D&D. D&D's the 800 lb gorilla. If someone has experience playing any RPG, I'd bet a substantial majority has D&D experience as their primary RPG. It has been the recipient of every gamer's or amateur game designer's often-obsessive focus. It often represents all RPGs at once. It's the focus or foil of most of our game design theories, musings, rumination, and bullting. So every toxic tendency or conflict among RPGers plays out in D&D and its publications.

By comparison, Paizo is that adventure-writing game company that kept 3e-style D&D alive in its long-format adventures. It's got a focus and it's focus is lore, stories, adventures - the setting. Yes, that setting is pastiche, a hodgepodge, a kitchen sink and it gives the setting book and AP authors a tremendous diversity of adventure ideas and themes to keep things fresh.

Honestly, I think a large part of it may be that with Pathfinder, it feels like there is a more active interest and participation on the part of the parent company. Paizo employees are active on their official forums, they regularly track and update their errata documents and take feedback directly from the players, etc.

People like to feel like their opinions matter and their actions have an effect on things.

With Forgotten Realms, the world can feel set in stone and unchanging, while the actions of your characters are ephemeral and meaningless, as major (permanent) events tend to happen around edition changes rather than in-world storylines. After the Horde of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat, are any of the events in those books referred to in Storm Kings Thunder or Princes of The Apocalypse/Out of the Abyss? (I honestly don't know, since I haven't played them.)

 

[prosfilaes]

I own the Core Rulebook, GameMastery Guide, Advanced Player's Guide, and Bestiaries 1-4. They aren't shy about "need an example on how to use this? In Golarion..." Plenty of examples pop up; traits, the Great Beyond, deities, etc.

In the hardbacks, traits appear in APG pages 326-333. At no point in that section do they mention Golarion. They do spend about a page on traits for one of the author's campaigns, that was published as Rise of the Runelords. They also spend a page on religious traits, that mention the gods but not anything else about the world. Looking at Bestiary 3, again they never mention Golarion. They do name the planes, and they do say that Ahriman is the demigod of the div and give some creation myths (that I'm not even sure are true for Golarion; I think they may fall into the realm of "canonical uncertainty and doubt.") The Bestiary is more generic than AD&D 1's Monster Manual.

No, Paizo can't make Eberron or Dark Sun, but they COULD make a pulp setting, a steampunk setting, a gothic horror setting, a sword-and-sandals setting, etc.

And? People aren't lusting for settings they've never had. A company that has only produced one setting and has made it clear that it can't afford to do another doesn't get the push to do another setting that another company that produced multiple settings between the early 1980s and early 2010s, nearly 40 years.

Not sure what the OGL has to do with anything though; what 3rd parties do don't effect what the mothership company does. I mean, by that token D&D has three fully supported settings: Forgotten Realms, Primeval Thule, and Middle Earth...

Of course options provided by 3rd parties change what people need from Paizo or Hasbro. If you want to argue that Primeval Thule and Middle Earth provide reasonable well-supported alternatives in the 5E marketplace, then do so.

Harbo doesn't produce D&D. Wizard's of the Coast does. And WotC only provides Hasbro sale's numbers quarterly, otherwise Hasbro doesn't care much. WotC's D&D division is about the size of Pathfinder's design division.

Hasbro owns WotC. From the inside, you may be correct, but Paizo has forums and people who work for Paizo post on forums, whereas WotC is much more of a faceless entity.

Well of course; WotC doesn't sell D&D 1-4 anymore.

I fail to see why that matters to the consumer who wants Eberron D&D.

 

[Davelozzi]

After the Horde of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat, are any of the events in those books referred to in Storm Kings Thunder or Princes of The Apocalypse/Out of the Abyss? (I honestly don't know, since I haven't played them.)

Yes. Storm King's Thunder is assumed to take place after those other APs (especially Tyranny of Dragons), and includes some references to all 3, thorough not to the extent that you can't easily tweak them away if you're choosing to set it before the others instead.

 

[Shasarak]

No, Paizo can't make Eberron or Dark Sun, but they COULD make a pulp setting, a steampunk setting, a gothic horror setting, a sword-and-sandals setting, etc. Paizo hasn't bothered. The only "new" setting they are creating is StarFinder's planetary system, and even IT references Golarion!

Do you really need people to complain about companies never doing something that they have never done? Like how Pizza Hut never makes Burgers?

I mean what is up with that?