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D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?
- Thread starter Sailor Moon
- Start date
Mark Stern
First Post
We just started playing a few sessions ago. I have been DMing and writing modules for over 20 years. Here are my observations (hopefully they will help anyone playing or planning to play):
Remember, I have only read chapter one, so this is based solely on that.
The story line seems solid and has a lot of different paths the PCs can take. However, in order for a DM to handle this properly, he/she will have to read all of the missions ahead and create some sort of outline summary sheet to keep things moving. Mine looks like this...
Missions (each takes an hour starting at 9 pm and ends at 4 am)
The Old Tunnel
The Sally Port
Dragon Attack (shortly before midnight)
Prisoners
Save the Mill
Sanctuary
Half-Dragon Champion (shortly before 4 am)
The biggest problem with the adventure is the game mechanics. The adventure does not stay within a reasonable threshold for PCs of 1st level. My PCs gained enough XP to level up on their way to the keep. I had to have them arrive at the keep at 1 pm just so they could rest and level up before approached by the Governor at 9 pm. I hadn't done the math but years of experience just told me that there was no way the PCs should be able to survive what was coming up at 1st level without resting after fighting their way to the keep.
Even at 2nd level, the very first mission they did, "The Old Tunnel" dictates that they must have a character with thieve's tools or they will probably only be able to handle 1-2 of the 7 missions. My PCs got ambushed because of the lack of thieve's tools and used every resource they had to survive the encounter with the raiders at the tunnel grate. Remembering that this was supposed to be a 1st level encounter, I did the math.
The encounter threshold is 500. A deadly encounter for four 1st level PCs is 400 (which means an ambush here should kill at least one PC); 2nd level is 800. An ambush makes it harder and I have found that it should increase the threshold by about 20%.
Four 1st level PCs should be able to handle 1,600 (on average) before needing a long rest. That would leave the PCs with 1,000 (including the rats) to go, with 6 missions left to complete. If a DM is running it properly and not pulling punches, it should be impossible for them to complete more than 2 of the 7 missions after reaching the keep without a long rest. My PCs are 2nd level and should reasonably be able to complete 3 of the 7 missions. This assumes that all of the missions have about the same threshold as "The Old Tunnel".
So DMs are going to have to alter some things considerably if they want their PCs to be able to experience more than 2 or 3 of the missions.
I really wish writers were required to submit a summary of the encounter thresholds to be approved before a work can be published. This adventure requires way too much work for a DM.
Remember, I have only read chapter one, so this is based solely on that.
The story line seems solid and has a lot of different paths the PCs can take. However, in order for a DM to handle this properly, he/she will have to read all of the missions ahead and create some sort of outline summary sheet to keep things moving. Mine looks like this...
Missions (each takes an hour starting at 9 pm and ends at 4 am)
The Old Tunnel
The Sally Port
Dragon Attack (shortly before midnight)
Prisoners
Save the Mill
Sanctuary
Half-Dragon Champion (shortly before 4 am)
The biggest problem with the adventure is the game mechanics. The adventure does not stay within a reasonable threshold for PCs of 1st level. My PCs gained enough XP to level up on their way to the keep. I had to have them arrive at the keep at 1 pm just so they could rest and level up before approached by the Governor at 9 pm. I hadn't done the math but years of experience just told me that there was no way the PCs should be able to survive what was coming up at 1st level without resting after fighting their way to the keep.
Even at 2nd level, the very first mission they did, "The Old Tunnel" dictates that they must have a character with thieve's tools or they will probably only be able to handle 1-2 of the 7 missions. My PCs got ambushed because of the lack of thieve's tools and used every resource they had to survive the encounter with the raiders at the tunnel grate. Remembering that this was supposed to be a 1st level encounter, I did the math.
The encounter threshold is 500. A deadly encounter for four 1st level PCs is 400 (which means an ambush here should kill at least one PC); 2nd level is 800. An ambush makes it harder and I have found that it should increase the threshold by about 20%.
Four 1st level PCs should be able to handle 1,600 (on average) before needing a long rest. That would leave the PCs with 1,000 (including the rats) to go, with 6 missions left to complete. If a DM is running it properly and not pulling punches, it should be impossible for them to complete more than 2 of the 7 missions after reaching the keep without a long rest. My PCs are 2nd level and should reasonably be able to complete 3 of the 7 missions. This assumes that all of the missions have about the same threshold as "The Old Tunnel".
So DMs are going to have to alter some things considerably if they want their PCs to be able to experience more than 2 or 3 of the missions.
I really wish writers were required to submit a summary of the encounter thresholds to be approved before a work can be published. This adventure requires way too much work for a DM.
Last edited:
My opinion? It's not "such a bad adventure." It's an adventure with some editing problems, which may not be a good fit for every table, or at least will require tailoring to fit some groups. But I've run my group all the way through HotDQ, and I wouldn't say it required significantly more work from me than any other published adventure I've run. Online resources (errata, etc.) help. And the storyline rocks.
This review does a pretty good job of summing up the adventure's strengths and weaknesses, IMO.
This review does a pretty good job of summing up the adventure's strengths and weaknesses, IMO.
Jacob Gargus
First Post
Hi, I stumbled across this old thread from a google search. I am a first time DM, and this module will be my first campaign. I am interested in reading your blog posts mentioned here, and was also wondering if you had any tips for this adventure specifically for first time DM's.
Jacob Gargus
First Post
The links to these blog posts are no good. Do they still exist?
Here is the thread we had for people who were running Hoard of the Dragon Queen and who wanted more ideas. See if this stuff helps you out at all:
ENHANCING HOARD OF THE DRAGON QUEEN
cmad1977
Hero
In my experience,
HoTDQ has plenty of issues and there are a variety of reasons behind them.
When I ran it the sessions were hit and miss. Which was entirely on me.
After about chapter 3 don't be afraid to use the adventure as a sourcebook(which in my opinion is what one should do with ALL published adventures) and make the adventures your own.
NOTE: I did not do the above and that's where I screwed up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
HoTDQ has plenty of issues and there are a variety of reasons behind them.
When I ran it the sessions were hit and miss. Which was entirely on me.
After about chapter 3 don't be afraid to use the adventure as a sourcebook(which in my opinion is what one should do with ALL published adventures) and make the adventures your own.
NOTE: I did not do the above and that's where I screwed up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
sunrisekid
Explorer
DMing this adventure took a lot of work but it was worth it. God, I loved this campaign. Sly Flourish has an indispensable guide. Make it your own, put some effort into it, let the players feel like they have choices, and you will remember those sessions for years to come.
I've just finished this as a player.
Hoard I give an F. Poorly written, poorly balanced, poorly put together, and the story drove me mad with how contrived it was. It was very hard at times to suspend disbelief.
The entire chapter where you go with the caravan can be completely thrown out IMO.
Rise of Tiamat I found much more enjoyable, I give it a B. You're higher level so it makes more sense plot wise, is more believable, and didn't feel as nonsense as Hoard. I didn't enjoy the Maze or the Red Wizards chapter though.
The biggest piece of advice I can give you is do not run this adventure verbatim. Our DM was new when starting and he just followed it verbatim. That contributed to our lack of enjoyment. As r got more experience and started tweaking the campaign, it became better.
Hoard I give an F. Poorly written, poorly balanced, poorly put together, and the story drove me mad with how contrived it was. It was very hard at times to suspend disbelief.
The entire chapter where you go with the caravan can be completely thrown out IMO.
Rise of Tiamat I found much more enjoyable, I give it a B. You're higher level so it makes more sense plot wise, is more believable, and didn't feel as nonsense as Hoard. I didn't enjoy the Maze or the Red Wizards chapter though.
The biggest piece of advice I can give you is do not run this adventure verbatim. Our DM was new when starting and he just followed it verbatim. That contributed to our lack of enjoyment. As r got more experience and started tweaking the campaign, it became better.
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