D&D 5E Burning doors with firebolt

[Saeviomagy]

1. A firebolt does 1d10 damage, or the same amount of damage that a not-particularly burly guy would do with an axe (ie - battleaxe held in two hands). In my mind, this would take a long time to hack a door down, so straight out blasting the door down would take a comparable amount of time.
2. Flammable does not mean what you think it means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability . A door (or wood in general) is combustible - it can burn, but won't ignite easily. Gunpowder is flammable, because it will ignite very easily. Amusingly enough, liquid petroleum doesn't qualify as flammable by most standards, because it's actually really hard to ignite as a liquid: you have to turn it into vapour first. Here's a fun set of tables : http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html. Note that anything which doesn't ignite below 60 degrees celsius doesn't count as flammable.
3. A burning door produces lots of smoke, noise and light, and takes a long time to burn through. If you're running published modules, this isn't a big deal, because most published modules assume a static dungeon. If your DM is anything like me, then not only are you likely to provoke a response from anything intelligent within the dungeon, you'll probably get the 4/5ths of creatures that aren't standing around uselessly in the dungeon coming home ready for a rumble...

 

[jasper]

HAVE ADVENTURERS BURNED DOWN YOUR DOORS? ARE YOU TIRED OF SMOKE ON THE CEILING, DEAD ORC, AND BURNT PIE?
COME ON DOWN TO JASPER THE DOOR TO DOOR SALEMAN. For a small fee we cover our "red barrel" doors in a nice dungeon brown.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Interestingly enough a Ram (see DMG p.255) does 3d10 bludgeoning damage while an 11th level PC's Fire Bolt does 3d10 fire damage. I would definitely give it the benefit of the doubt when it came to burning through a door with a few hits.

 

[Oofta]

At a certain point this comes down to how realistic do you want your game to be, and how does magic work in your campaign?

A ram may do the same amount of damage as an 11th level firebolt, but batter down the door and the door may have some slight damage, but in most cases it's still a door.

The ram breaking down the door is not completely destroying the door - it's breaking hinges and locking mechanisms. Firebolt would be more akin to trying to break down a door by firing arrows at it. If you just look at the door as hit points that can be damaged by any attack then both should work. If you take the approach that since it's not explicitly spelled out by the rules it's up to the DM to decide how it works then you can rule that neither firebolt nor arrows are going to be particularly effective in opening a door.

Either approach is valid.

 

[jgsugden]

To me, the root of this is a story issue.

RPG. Role playing game. You play a role in a story.

A rogue unlocking a door can be a silent invader, sneaking to the prize and escaping without notice. They run a greater risk of setting off traps - but that is why they're trained to find and disarm them.

A burly warrior with an axe or a wizard blasting fire can also get past that door, but the story surrounding their efforts will be quite different. It is loud. There is less of a risk of setting off traps - but the risk is not negated. Arcane traps, pressure plates, etc... can all still be set off when a door is reduced to splinters or ash.

Regardless of the mode the PCs use to best the door - make it a good story! Celebrate that they faced a door that would stop you or me and they were able to use their heroic abilities to best the door. I know that destroying a door is not exactly the equal of slaying a dragon - but you can still make it a chance to make the players feel like heroes.

"As Radaghast unleashes his fire bolts upon the door it is blasted to ashen bits. On the other side of the doorframe is a stone chamber filled with broken barrels and four orcs - four orcs that were clearly not expecting the door to explode towards them. They are lounging with their backs to the shattered barrels as they gnaw on fleshy bones dripping with blood. They're caught off guard by your sudden attack - you get a surprise round versus the prone foes. What do you do? When Loras charges in he discovers there is a fifth orc by the door that was waiting on watch - one that is not as surprised as his allies. He swings his axe as Loras passes the door..."

"Roll a d20, Artemis ... Artemis does not see any evidence of traps or trickery as he approaches the wooden door. Neither the door nor the lock appear to have been subject to any tampering. It is a fairly basic lock - something that would keep the average folk out, but a skilled rogue like Artemis should be able to beat it. Roll another d20... and he does open the lock with ease. Artemis can hear sounds coming from the opposite side of the door once he unlatches it. The sounds reminds him of hogs at the farm when his father threw the leftovers in their stall. He peaks behind the door and sees four orcs gorging themselves on the corpse of something that once walked on two legs. They seem unaware of Artemis spying on them. Artemis has the time to look around the room and sees that there is a fifth orc in the room standing right beside the door. It is also unaware of you, but seems to be on watch and more prepared to jump into battle. If you engage, it doesn't look like you'd be able to catch him unawares. What do you do?"

 

[Gadget]

I agree with others here saying that a medievalish wood door is going to be some kind of treated and hardwood that would not go up in smoke at the touch of a firebolt. Having been around many campfires, it is not easy to set large, heavy pieces of wood aflame, even if Firebolt is considerably more than lighter. Even if the door was set ablaze, it would take quite a while in many cases to burn completely, with a great deal of smoke making it difficult to remain in the vicinity.

Setting a side the 'realism' issue, the real problem is allowing a cantrip a little too much leeway in getting things done and by passing obstacles. Firebolt is almost unique among the direct damage cantrips in that it does not have have the target restriction of 'creatures'. It might be less problematic to add this restriction to the cantrip.

 

[Greenfield]

What? The description you quoted makes it abundantly clear that Firebolt can kill a monster. The general rules for damaging and killing creatures are very clear. In contrast, the DMG section on damaging objects is explicitly a bunch of suggestions, except for these two directives:

My response was to the suggestion that somehow, because Firebolt didn't explicitly mention doors, it couldn't burn them. So, following the same logic, since it talked about damage but didn't explicitly mention death... So you have to look at the rules to determine that damage can cause death, and that doors, being objects made of a flammable material, will be ignited by the spell. You have to apply common sense instead of treating a statement as if it existed in a vacuum.

Bottom line, the rules don't say that there's a "chance" of flammable objects catching fire. It says they catch fire, period. There isn't a Save, a resistance check, a test to see if the spell did a minimum amount of damage or met some other special threshold standard. The spell does what the rules say it does.

Don't like it? Change the rules. Until that comes to pass though, play bey them.

This is the difference between real life and game mechanics I mentioned. IRL it would be hard to make that door catch fire without hitting it with some kind of accellerant (i.e. adding alcohol or gasoline to soak the surface). In a real life discussion it would make sense to question whether an instantaneous flash of flame could light a heavy timber. You'd need something to help it catch, help it spread.

In a game mechanics discussion there is no doubt, no room for error. The spell says it lights the thing, so it lights the thing.

The only alternative would be to rule that the wooden door is somehow not a "flammable" material, which would raise an even bigger question and a lot more argument on this board. Like, how does the party start camp fires if wood isn't flammable?

See? An even bigger schism between games and real world.

All that's left is to determine how much damage being on fire does, and how many hit/break/structure/whatever points a heavy wooden door has.

What can and should be done is to determine if there is any other negative effect from this scorched-underearth policy.

Things I'd consider:
Does the smell of smoke alert anything/everything to the party's presence?
Does the smoke cloud obscure vision or cause breathing difficulties?
Is there any toxic effect from a lot of smoke in a confined tunnel or room?

The only thing that isn't in question, from a strict mechanics point of view, is whether the trick can burn down a door. The answer is an absolute yes.

<Tangent> When my group played 4th Ed. we observed that the "Burning" condition did damage only on the target's action. This explained why you could enter an ancient temple, deserted for centuries, and all the oil burning braziers and torches were still lit: Unattended objects don't get actions, so they never take any damage, and never get consumed by the flames. One of our favorite jokes. Want to keep the house from burning down? Get out and leave it alone. So long as the fire and/or object is unattended, the fire does no damage. </Tangent>

 

[Satyrn]

To me, the root of this is a story issue.

RPG. Role playing game. You play a role in a story.

A rogue unlocking a door can be a silent invader, sneaking to the prize and escaping without notice. They run a greater risk of setting off traps - but that is why they're trained to find and disarm them.

A burly warrior with an axe or a wizard blasting fire can also get past that door, but the story surrounding their efforts will be quite different. It is loud. There is less of a risk of setting off traps - but the risk is not negated. Arcane traps, pressure plates, etc... can all still be set off when a door is reduced to splinters or ash.

Regardless of the mode the PCs use to best the door - make it a good story! Celebrate that they faced a door that would stop you or me and they were able to use their heroic abilities to best the door. I know that destroying a door is not exactly the equal of slaying a dragon - but you can still make it a chance to make the players feel like heroes.

"As Radaghast unleashes his fire bolts upon the door it is blasted to ashen bits. On the other side of the doorframe is a stone chamber filled with broken barrels and four orcs - four orcs that were clearly not expecting the door to explode towards them. They are lounging with their backs to the shattered barrels as they gnaw on fleshy bones dripping with blood. They're caught off guard by your sudden attack - you get a surprise round versus the prone foes. What do you do? When Loras charges in he discovers there is a fifth orc by the door that was waiting on watch - one that is not as surprised as his allies. He swings his axe as Loras passes the door..."

"Roll a d20, Artemis ... Artemis does not see any evidence of traps or trickery as he approaches the wooden door. Neither the door nor the lock appear to have been subject to any tampering. It is a fairly basic lock - something that would keep the average folk out, but a skilled rogue like Artemis should be able to beat it. Roll another d20... and he does open the lock with ease. Artemis can hear sounds coming from the opposite side of the door once he unlatches it. The sounds reminds him of hogs at the farm when his father threw the leftovers in their stall. He peaks behind the door and sees four orcs gorging themselves on the corpse of something that once walked on two legs. They seem unaware of Artemis spying on them. Artemis has the time to look around the room and sees that there is a fifth orc in the room standing right beside the door. It is also unaware of you, but seems to be on watch and more prepared to jump into battle. If you engage, it doesn't look like you'd be able to catch him unawares. What do you do?"

Yeah. I was gonna say earlier that I would treat a wizard using firebolt or a warlock usingeldritch blast against a door very much like a barbarian using his axe against it.

Since I'd have the barbarian roll a Strength check (with success meaning he does it quickly, and failure meaning he does it slowly, alerting the orcs on the other side of the door) , I'd have the wizard make an Intelligence check for using an Int-based tool, and have the warlock make a Charisma check.

Because as you say, the important part here is really how their actions affect the orcs on the other side of the door.

 

[Fanaelialae]

To me, the root of this is a story issue.

RPG. Role playing game. You play a role in a story.

A rogue unlocking a door can be a silent invader, sneaking to the prize and escaping without notice. They run a greater risk of setting off traps - but that is why they're trained to find and disarm them.

A burly warrior with an axe or a wizard blasting fire can also get past that door, but the story surrounding their efforts will be quite different. It is loud. There is less of a risk of setting off traps - but the risk is not negated. Arcane traps, pressure plates, etc... can all still be set off when a door is reduced to splinters or ash.

Regardless of the mode the PCs use to best the door - make it a good story! Celebrate that they faced a door that would stop you or me and they were able to use their heroic abilities to best the door. I know that destroying a door is not exactly the equal of slaying a dragon - but you can still make it a chance to make the players feel like heroes.

"As Radaghast unleashes his fire bolts upon the door it is blasted to ashen bits. On the other side of the doorframe is a stone chamber filled with broken barrels and four orcs - four orcs that were clearly not expecting the door to explode towards them. They are lounging with their backs to the shattered barrels as they gnaw on fleshy bones dripping with blood. They're caught off guard by your sudden attack - you get a surprise round versus the prone foes. What do you do? When Loras charges in he discovers there is a fifth orc by the door that was waiting on watch - one that is not as surprised as his allies. He swings his axe as Loras passes the door..."

"Roll a d20, Artemis ... Artemis does not see any evidence of traps or trickery as he approaches the wooden door. Neither the door nor the lock appear to have been subject to any tampering. It is a fairly basic lock - something that would keep the average folk out, but a skilled rogue like Artemis should be able to beat it. Roll another d20... and he does open the lock with ease. Artemis can hear sounds coming from the opposite side of the door once he unlatches it. The sounds reminds him of hogs at the farm when his father threw the leftovers in their stall. He peaks behind the door and sees four orcs gorging themselves on the corpse of something that once walked on two legs. They seem unaware of Artemis spying on them. Artemis has the time to look around the room and sees that there is a fifth orc in the room standing right beside the door. It is also unaware of you, but seems to be on watch and more prepared to jump into battle. If you engage, it doesn't look like you'd be able to catch him unawares. What do you do?"

I respect the rule of cool, but you probably need to draw a line somewhere. Is it cool for the bard to be able to persuade the door into opening? For some groups it might, but others will find it ludicrous.

 

[Satyrn]

Bottom line, the rules don't say that there's a "chance" of flammable objects catching fire. It says they catch fire, period. There isn't a Save, a resistance check, a test to see if the spell did a minimum amount of damage or met some other special threshold standard. The spell does what the rules say it does.

Agreed. Although it's up to the DM to rule if the door is flammable.

It's been pointed out by someone else that flammable means "readily combustible" and not simply "can burn." He provided technical specifications, too, but it's good enough for me to say a wooden door is not readily combustible, because we all know that it takes a fair bit of effort - and kindling! - to get a campfire burning.

Similarly, if a wizard wanted to use firebolt to start a campfire, I'd rule that kindling is flammable, but not the logs.