D&D 5E What does balance mean to you?

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Why bother? His arguments are illogical. When people base their arguments on fallacy, you can't use reason or logic to argue against them, because it will just fall away like water off a duck's back.

Incredible. I was just going to tell Sacrosanct the same thing. How did you know?

"A game without balance?! All is chaos...there can be no meaning to anything...it ends up in nihilism" That there, my friend, is what we who deal in logic like to call reductio ad absurdum. Nope, not a Harry Potter incantation. It is one of the best known -and still and yet very often used- logical fallacies. Also, quite the strawman.

So now you're telling people the right way to play the game. Nice.

Seems to be plenty of that going around.
 
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dropbear8mybaby

Banned
Banned
Seems to be plenty of that going around.

In a balanced system, you can also play the game however you want and imbalance it through DM fiat. You just don't have to do it that way. And I'm not telling anyone how to play the game, irrespective of the fact that my way is, clearly, the superior way because I'm terribly awesome and have a deific level of intellect, I'm merely saying that DM fiat shouldn't be a requirement for system balance and, when designing a system or trying to balance it, shouldn't be a factor for consideration.

If a designer of an RPG came out and said, "Yeah, but the DM can just do whatever they want, so I designed it without any considerations for balance," would you play that game or consider it well designed?
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I don't think you can separate balance...or perhaps "sensible design" is a better phrase?...from DM judgment in 5th edition. And I think that is intentional.

And I am grateful for it.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
If a designer of an RPG came out and said, "Yeah, but the DM can just do whatever they want, so I designed it without any considerations for balance," would you play that game or consider it well designed?

I really couldn't say without seeing what the game was whether or not I'd want to play it. I'd need to see how I thought it looked like it would play, and would probably give it a few chances to see if I'd like it. If it was interesting or evocative for me, sure, why not? If I didn't like it after giving it a chance, then I'd stop.

As for "would I consider it well designed?" That isn't really ever something that enters my perspective. Does the game plays well? Are we having fun with it? Is the table getting imaginative and creative, solving problems and succeeding at goals?...then isn't that "well designed?"...without ever thinking or looking at the dreaded omnipotent [to some] "balance."
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
To label something as well designed you have to look at it's design goals. Well designed is meeting or exceeding your design goals. I think 5th edition has done that.

I do wish to agree that as long as there is a DM that determines the challenges you will face then the game cannot be balanced without the DM. But then there is also the question of whether the game gives the DM easy tools that he can use to balance the game if desired. I don't think 5th edition does a good job of this.
 

Argyle King

Legend
That's sounding plausible, I think you may have been playing a different game from me, too. ;) One of the early complaints was that PC numbers didn't keep up with monsters, not vice-versa. It was addressed (and over done, IMHO), especially in Essentials, which introduced & re-introduced many balance issues, while simultaneously becoming more parsimonious with errata. In retrospect, a faltering first step towards 5e...

It was meant to be able to handle the styles of each past edition, and that certainly precludes going to far in any one direction, and requires leaving the DM a great deal of latitude. As a result, balance (since past editions varied radically, from the baroque & failed balancing mechanisms of the classic game, to the intentional rewards for system mastery of 3.x, to the robust balance of 4e) was also left very much up to the DM.


I hear that a lot, but I'm not sure where the disconnect is. For the group I played with most often, most monsters were crushed. The later feats and such which gave more power to the PCs amplified the effect. It wasn't uncommon for the PCs to be able to hit the enemy with single-digit rolls or for some fights to end without the opposition being able to take meaningful actions to respond. Monster Manual 3's adjustments to creatures evened things out a bit (which is an odd coincidence considering that 3rd's MM3 did the same for that edition), but 4th's life after that wasn't much longer. Eventually Essentials hit, which I do actually consider to be a different game despite being compatible because my impression was that 4.5 was built around some very different ideas concerning how the game should work. I'd say I was once a "H4ter," but eventually settled into something of a love/hate relationship with 4th Edition. There were things about it which bugged me, but there are also things about it which I wish 5th Edition would have kept. In particular, I feel that 4th Edition encounter design, use of terrain features, and trap design were all a lot more exciting. (If you're interested, I have a few 4e-ish inspired ideas that I'm planning to test out in 5th Edition.)
Looking back at my previous post, I think I may have confused by old 3rd Edition notes with some of my old 4th Edition notes... a fail on my part born from trying to keep several editions straight in my head while D&D isn't typically my primary rpg. I did recently join a 4th Edition game, and I had forgotten how much of a HP grind higher levels were. The group recently hit 13th level.


For the most part, I think 5th has improved things. I imagine I'll have more of an opinion and more of a grasp on things over the next few months though. I'm running a game for a group of friends. A comment I made toward the end of the Survivor Races thread inspired me to write something using 5th Edition Gnolls and Elder Scrolls Oblivion as inspiration. Most of the problems I've had with 5th were during Adventurer's League play. Though, I do have a few things I'm planning to do differently out of the gate; using proficiency dice instead of a static modifier is something I'd like to do. From the player side of thing, I feel like it's boring when the group decides to just always have the guy with the +5 bonus attempt things. In theory, the dice are a bonus, but my guess is that the mental concept of dice being a little more random will (hopefully) inspire people who aren't trained in skills to still try things because it's not necessarily obvious that one member of the party should always be rolling. I'm also debating on making initiative something which has no connection to dexterity.
 

Triumph_Fork

First Post
This is a good topic

What is balance you say?
Balance is to make sure every player at the table is having fun and being useful for different reasons. Imbalance is when one party member takes over too much and does the work of everyone or if the DM is slaughtering the party intentionally or not, based on miscalculating their encounter levels.

When balancing...
It'll all depend on the situation and the roll of the dice on my encounter tables. The toughest encounters, players might only have a 50% chance of winning (such as in a final boss fight) whereas other times, the enemies only have about 40-80% of the party's overall combat strength.

Hints of imbalance
When somebody is doing all of the talking at the table and making decisions for the entire party constantly... That's a problem. When player's have their phones out and aren't having fun, something's up.

My desired outcomes
For combats, I want the players to think differently from combat to combat. Whether it means using their environment to their advantage, or trying to destroy enemy fortification, I want to change it up and keep their minds working. Nothing's worse then coming across the same enemies on a flat map with nothing on it.

Fixing Imbalance
I use on the fly improvisation. If an enemy is too tough, I'll half it's HP or get them to flee to fight another day. If a player is a problem, I can target a player more often with spells & effects. I'll try to engage other players at the table and let them "discuss as a group" before heading forward so everyone gets input in decision making. It does depend on the situation but that's what I'll do. If it's a constant problem from session to session, I'll have a word with the player.

Odds of "winning"
So yes and no. Not all of the time would I play in a game like that. BOSS fights should be "Deadly" Encounters. In that situation, yes there should be approximately a 50-50 chance of winning, but I like to lean it slightly in towards the player's favour because I do want them to be successful. Overall though, most encounters will be Medium difficulty, which would be like 80% chance of winning. But I'm talking about 6-8 encounters like that in a day so the party better be spending their resources wisely!

Winning in dnd is when the DM and the players are all having fun, enough said!
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
I understood what you said, and I'm sure he did as well. Honestly, I think it's you who is not getting what I'm trying to say. The game is not "combat only", and you can't compare "combat feats against other combat feats" for this reason, as well as the reason that they all overlap under the greater umbrella. Combat, interaction, and exploration aren't all separate things that don't impact one another--they more often than not all overlap and impact each other. Exploration or interaction may allow you to overcome a combat challenge rather than combat. And vice versa. They are all intertwined. At least, that's how the game is designed to be played. See my examples I gave earlier about how some classes seem way OP to others depending on if you allow short rests all the time or not, or if you ignore other factors. Gaining and maintaining spell components is very much an out of combat action, but it very much impacts the combat encounter unless you (general you) choose to ignore it. So you can't really complain casters are OP when you're ignoring features built into the overall game that are meant to mitigate these things.

For example, even if you look at two "combat" feats: heavy armor mastery and grappling. A person who views D&D only at a tactical combat sim will probably say grappling is worthless, especially compared to heavy armor mastery that is basically a damage reduction mechanic, so it's not balanced. But D&D is not meant to be played as a tactical combat sim, and those out of combat factors play a huge role. Maybe they party is in a desert, ocean, or jungle, and wearing heavy armor imparts serious penalties or can't be used at all. Or someone casts heat metal on the armor wearing guy. In those cases, being able to grappler would have a much bigger impact than heavy armor feat.

The point is, is that you cannot separate the three pillars into different games. That's bad methodology for whatever analysis you want to do, because that's not how the game is designed to be played. If all you're doing is evaluating white room arena comparison, then some comparisons will seem very unbalanced because they are designed knowing that other factors from the other two pillars will have an impact in the typical game (like how the availability of spell components is not a combat pillar feature, but very much has an impact during the combat phase). So if you choose to ignore the other two pillars, the onus is on you to make those adjustments because you're the one skewing some abilities/feats to be artificially more impactful than others.

*Edit* Also, not myself, or anyone else, has said balance doesn't matter and/or nothing else matters. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop slinging around inferred insults of nihilism based on a strawman. The original context of my replies was around how someone said they can "break the game" by a build, and I disagreed. When myself and others have talked about balance, of course we all agree that there has to be a good foundation, but only that it's completely subjective, and all factors of how the game is designed to be played should be taken into account, and therefore if you're playing the game as an exception to this assumed design, then it's up to you to make adjustments, and not the game's fault of refusing to balance like you want.
Your arguments seem to only see white and black - in other words, if two things are both subjective, they are equally and totally subjective. In truth there are many shades of gray. If you read my post, my point of disagreement is that your threshold for saying something is too subjective to be evaluated for balance is too low. Like using an example of some guy in Texas playing all water campaigns to say that grappler might be better than heavy armor. Balance is achieved by looking at the mean/average, not the exceptional - and its really not that difficult to figure out.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
Balance (whatever that may mean to the DM or group) happens because of the DM's efforts toward that end, not because of the game system. This is why I find complaints about "balance" in D&D 5e to be laughable.

What I find laughable is the game designers getting a free ride on not putting enough work into balancing things and then getting defended by people who say its not the designers' job to balance things its the DM's job. Great way to produce the perfect game lol :)

What I also find laughable is that if you think its the DM's job to balance things, why do you care if the game gets balanced differently? Can't your DM just adjust things at your table accordingly? :) hmmmm......
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
In a balanced system, you can also play the game however you want and imbalance it through DM fiat. You just don't have to do it that way. And I'm not telling anyone how to play the game, irrespective of the fact that my way is, clearly, the superior way because I'm terribly awesome and have a deific level of intellect, I'm merely saying that DM fiat shouldn't be a requirement for system balance and, when designing a system or trying to balance it, shouldn't be a factor for consideration.

If a designer of an RPG came out and said, "Yeah, but the DM can just do whatever they want, so I designed it without any considerations for balance," would you play that game or consider it well designed?

EXACTLY! Much better said than my feeble attempt. :)
 

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