D&D 5E What actions by a PC Don't need to be stated?

[hastur_nz]

I'd switch the question around and say, "as DM, are you trying to trick the players into bad decisions, or help them understand the situation and make an informed decision?"

See, these arguments usually only occur when the players don't have perfect information, so assumptions get made.

Ideally, IMO, as DM you might pause, and say "so do you drag the rope back up, or leave it behind?" because it's kinda silly for someone 'in the real world' to leave it behind, it's just not gonna happen unless they really mean to.

Same for entering a potentially deadly a cloud - 'in the real world', you would definitely give it a go, to hold your breath (but of course in this case, it's not going to make any difference, but still). So as DM you might pause and confirm if they do hold their breath, or at least note how doing so doesn't make any difference.

Remember: the players can only see the world through the lens that we, the DM, provide them.

 

[Quickleaf]

1) Morath rushed through a cloudkill spell to reach the rest of the party on the other side. I had him roll his con save and another player asked if he holding your breath when going through the cloud allowed you to make the save with advantage. Morath says that of course he was holding his breath when he ran through the cloudkill. I inform him that he would have had to state that before running into the cloud and Morath argues that he thought it went without saying that he did so.

You're both wrong. Read cloudkill.

[SECTION]You create a 20-foot-radius sphere of poisonous, yellow-green fog centered on a point you choose within range. The fog spreads around corners. It lasts for the duration or until strong wind disperses the fog, ending the spell. Its area is heavily obscured.

When a creature enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must make a Constitution saving throw. The creature takes 5d8 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Creatures are affected even if they hold their breath or don't need to breathe.

The fog moves 10 feet away from you at the start of each of your turns, rolling along the surface of the ground. The vapors, being heavier than air, sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down openings.[/SECTION]

I've heard people compare it to sulfur mustard gas in that it is corrosive simply by contact/exposure, not inhalation. Anyhow, the rules are clear. Holding your breath is irrelevant.

Also I never actually made a call during the session, since I established that he wasn't holding his breath, but I would have ruled that holding your breath does nothing to help. It's more an issue of the PC's having to state they are doing any action they are hoping to grant them a mechanical advantage, whether or not the action actually helps at all.

Even though you both misread the rules and were technically wrong, situations concerning breath holding *do* arise in the game.

This is one of those areas where you need to make a ruling because the rules aren't clear; what I do is say if the PC takes a moment to prepare or has the opportunity to prepare and the threat is obvious then they are holding their breath.

2)Morath and another PC are sleeping inside of a statue that has stairs leading to the top. The stairs are collapsed partway up and the only way to the top of the statue is by climbing a rope. The next morning the party has left the area, comes back, and finds a wizard at the top of the statue with the rope curled around his feet. When talking about it Morath claims that of course he would have pulled the rope up after him when climbing the tower, he thought it didn't need to be stated that he would do so. I again said that he would have had to of told me he did so the night before when they were making the camp.

I consider losing the "who is right?" thinking. What matters is making the game work for you and your players.

To avoid confusion in the future, I recommend having a chat with your group about the party's SOPs (standard operating procedures). Like a "session zero" talk, this can save you headaches. Common things to address in a party's SOP include...

• Marching order (in wilderness vs. dungeon, if there's any difference)
• Who takes watch / watch rotations
• Routine spell preparation for non-adventuring days
• Buff spells or rituals commonly used during long rests
• Common strategies the party has adopted (e.g. we take all ropes after climbing, generally we don't leave stuff behind up, we are "pack it out" campers)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

"I search, I roll a __" is not sufficient to tell a story. Add the details, paint the scene for the rest of us. If you don't want to do that? Go play a video game where you can just push a search button.

Good storytellers don't need dice and rules to tell stories. The rest of us are playing Dungeons & Dragons rather than doing some freeform collaborative narrative thing because the mechanics provide a helpful framework on which to stretch our limited imaginations. But we are also playing Dungeons & Dragons rather than some *haughtysniff* video game, presumably because we want to be. I mean, it seems pretty safe to assume in this year of 2017 that all of us are aware of the existence of video games, and that it is by choice we are sitting together around a table with pens and papers and maps and miniatures instead. And of the people gathered around the table, it's normally the role of the DM to be chief storyteller. So if one player is leaning on their rolls a bit more heavily in describing their actions, so what? That's what the rolls are there for. It's the DM's job to spin that into a scene -- not to tell that player that they're having fun wrong and should get lost.

 

[Seramus]

Almost everyone would have held their breath. So I would have given him that one, the same way I would give any player jumping into water (not getting knocked in) a deep breath. But, in this specific case it wouldn't have mattered with Cloudkill.

The rope thing is pretty specific. There's a good reason for them to leave it down (so they can get back up), so you were in the right there. Maybe an Int check if you are feeling generous.

 

[outsider]

"I search, I roll a __" is not sufficient to tell a story. Add the details, paint the scene for the rest of us. If you don't want to do that? Go play a video game where you can just push a search button.

I could do that, as well. I could spend 5 minutes per search describing in explicit detail how I'm searching for each physical object for traps. I could probably take up a whole session searching a single room that way, if you really wanted me to. It doesn't make for fun gaming for anybody though. An extremely common game action(searching for traps) should not be made arduous and time consuming. The rest of the group shouldn't have to sit there as I try to cover literally everything involved in searching for a trap. And if the DM gets condescending about how I searched the door for traps but forgot to search the lock(on the door) for traps, that is EXACTLY what he is asking me to do.

Now, if you want to take the route of "due to your passive perception, you notice something seems odd about the desk in the corner, describe to me how you examine it", that's 100% fine. Expecting me to give a five minute speech about how I search for a trap on every door, floor, chest, interactable object, etc, EVEN WHEN IT'S NOT TRAPPED is a complete waste of my time, your time, and the rest of the player's time.

 

[Lanefan]

Common things to address in a party's SOP include...
[*]Marching order (in wilderness vs. dungeon, if there's any difference)

Marching order is something I ask for every time because it changes so often - they just position their minis accordingly.

[*]Who takes watch / watch rotations

I ask for a "watch list" which then gets clipped to the outside of my DM screen. They can change it whenever they like, but whatever's on there when I reach for it determines who's on watch when something happens.

[*]Routine spell preparation for non-adventuring days
[*]Buff spells or rituals commonly used during long rests

SOP for overnight rests doesn't work as sometimes they've used too many spells. I just ask what they're casting at the end of the day each time.

[*]Common strategies the party has adopted (e.g. we take all ropes after climbing, generally we don't leave stuff behind up, we are "pack it out" campers)

If it's not relevant, sometimes this stuff just gets handwaved; but something like do they pull up or leave a rope somewhere is always relevant - thus if they don't say anything, I ask.

Good storytellers don't need dice and rules to tell stories. The rest of us are playing Dungeons & Dragons rather than doing some freeform collaborative narrative thing because the mechanics provide a helpful framework on which to stretch our limited imaginations. But we are also playing Dungeons & Dragons rather than some *haughtysniff* video game, presumably because we want to be. I mean, it seems pretty safe to assume in this year of 2017 that all of us are aware of the existence of video games, and that it is by choice we are sitting together around a table with pens and papers and maps and miniatures instead. And of the people gathered around the table, it's normally the role of the DM to be chief storyteller. So if one player is leaning on their rolls a bit more heavily in describing their actions, so what? That's what the rolls are there for. It's the DM's job to spin that into a scene -- not to tell that player that they're having fun wrong and should get lost.

Well, first things first: "I search, I roll a ___" would never be said at my table, because that's not a player roll to make. You as character (and thus player) should never be that easily able to tell the difference between failure due to bad luck (or incompetence) and failure because there's simply nothing there to find.

And if someone just says "I search" and expects me to roll, the next thing out of my mouth will be somthing like "You search what?"

I also have the results mirror the statement in one way: a generic statement like "I search the room" tells me the search is also generic, i.e. not very thorough or meticulous, which - if there's anything at all to be found - reduces the odds of finding it. A more specific statement e.g. "I'm searching the desk carefully, including the drawers" tells me it's a thorough search and thus - again if there's anything there to begin with - improves the odds of success. In other words, lazy statement = lazy search.

Lan-"sometimes deciding on a watch list can take a surprisingly long time"-efan

 

[TallIan]

I would say that if they are hoping for a mechanical advantage then they need to say before hand. "I climb the cliff." <fail roll> "oh btw I was using my rope and pitons" does sound gamey to me. " I unsling my pack, take out my climbing gear and climb the cliff." makes for better RP IMO, though this can go too far if the players get carried away with paranoia and detail every minute action - "I take out my rope and tie it around my waist. Climb 10 feet then hammer in a piton before continuing anther 10 feet..."

Your point 2 is harder to gauge because it depends on the honesty of the players. If they always choose the favourable option as required then you need to be a bit more pedantic. If they are honest and consistent, ie always take the rope, then you can relax this a lot.

 

[Oofta]

So last session me and one of my players got into a minor argument a couple of times about what his character was doing.For the purpose of this post we'll call him Morath (his PC's name). I want the your guy's opinion on whether I made the right calls in the specific situations and also on how other DM's handle the idea of what actions by a PC don't need to be stated . Skip to the Bold if you want to just get to the general question and skip the specifics scenarios.

1) Morath rushed through a cloudkill spell to reach the rest of the party on the other side. I had him roll his con save and another player asked if he holding your breath when going through the cloud allowed you to make the save with advantage. Morath says that of course he was holding his breath when he ran through the cloudkill. I inform him that he would have had to state that before running into the cloud and Morath argues that he thought it went without saying that he did so.

On this issue my thinking is that if you want to try for some sort of mechanical advantage, such as getting advantage on a save, you HAVE to tell me your doing something. I'm not going to assume it.
Also I never actually made a call during the session, since I established that he wasn't holding his breath, but I would have ruled that holding your breath does nothing to help. It's more an issue of the PC's having to state they are doing any action they are hoping to grant them a mechanical advantage, whether or not the action actually helps at all.

As [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] pointed out, it wouldn't have mattered. But let me ask you this. Would you assume that someone diving into water is holding their breath even if they didn't state it?

In my games, things like this just go without stating. If the character did something more creative like pulling down a tapestry, getting the tapestry wet somehow and putting it over themselves to protect them from the gas? Sure, they get advantage. They took a specific action, something other than just common sense to protect themselves.

2)Morath and another PC are sleeping inside of a statue that has stairs leading to the top. The stairs are collapsed partway up and the only way to the top of the statue is by climbing a rope. The next morning the party has left the area, comes back, and finds a wizard at the top of the statue with the rope curled around his feet. When talking about it Morath claims that of course he would have pulled the rope up after him when climbing the tower, he thought it didn't need to be stated that he would do so. I again said that he would have had to of told me he did so the night before when they were making the camp.

Depending on the situation, I might ask for wisdom/survival check to see if they thought of this at the time. They didn't explicitly state it, but it would be a common sense thing to do.

On this issue my thinking is that I'm not going to make assumptions about the parties preparations that they don't state. During the previous scenario the other half of the party described how the tied off doors to secure their camp and what watch order they took. Morath and his companion described how they climbed the tower and set up a guardian of faith at the top of the tower. If they didn't also state "we also pull up the rope after us" then the rope is still hanging down.

So my general style of DMing, as you may have guessed by my answers above, is that if you don't tell me about something it didn't happen. I try and be fair about this. If the party makes a plan I will generally ask if that is all they are doing and then repeat the plan back to them, to clear up any misunderstandings. If the party says something like "we make camp for the night" I don't just assume they fall over asleep on the spot, I'll prod them about watch order and any defenses they want to erect.

My question to you playground is what do you think it is reasonable to just assume a PC is doing even if they don't state it?

I don't want to drag the story down with minutia. I'd rather focus on atmosphere and story. Fiddly details just slow the narrative down. If I think it's something the characters might not think of, I ask for an appropriate skill check.

in a dungeon are they closing doors behind them?

Yes.

Are they collecting rope used in exploring?

I rarely track rope to the foot, so no unless it's an unusual situation where they have to scavenge for supplies.

If they sleep in a dungeon is it assumed the door is barricaded?

If there is a door, yes. If there's not a door (or if the door is flimsy) I'll give them a chance to describe what they do. Generally speaking I'll ask them one time what kind of preparations they take under various circumstances such as camping outdoors in the wilderness. Again, skill checks may come into play.

If they sleep in an inn is it assumed the door is locked? Where do you draw the line?[/B]

I assume that the characters may think of things that the players do not. I don't assume that Bob the City Slicker who has never spent a night outdoors knows how to survive the wilderness like his character Farangor the Ranger who has spent his life living by his wits in the wildest regions of my world.

But really it comes down to "gotchas". I don't do it. If I think the character could have or should have noticed or thought of something I'll ask for a skill check. If they come up with a clever idea on their own, all the better.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Well, first things first: "I search, I roll a ___" would never be said at my table, because that's not a player roll to make. You as character (and thus player) should never be that easily able to tell the difference between failure due to bad luck (or incompetence) and failure because there's simply nothing there to find.

That's a whole different conversation.

And if someone just says "I search" and expects me to roll, the next thing out of my mouth will be somthing like "You search what?"

Sure, ask for clarification if it's not clear from context. But in my experience it's normally pretty obvious what they want to search. And "You search what?" is often a red flag for them that you've got a trick up your sleeve and they ought to search everything. Twice.

I also have the results mirror the statement in one way: a generic statement like "I search the room" tells me the search is also generic, i.e. not very thorough or meticulous, which - if there's anything at all to be found - reduces the odds of finding it. A more specific statement e.g. "I'm searching the desk carefully, including the drawers" tells me it's a thorough search and thus - again if there's anything there to begin with - improves the odds of success. In other words, lazy statement = lazy search.

I use advantage for this. Assume what you call a "lazy search" is the norm and reward greater planning.

 

[cmad1977]

I always assume the best of the heroes.
Generally speaking they:
Pick up ropes that they can.
Lock relevant doors.
Hold breath in water.
Move around danger areas instead of through. (Assuming the character can go around and the Player misjudged or misunderstood).
Set a watch.
Etc.


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