D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Sadras]

As I said upthread, when I talk about deities in the context of a RPG world I'm talking about beings which are actually deities - beings who anchor and integrate the greater cosmos into the lives and purposes of mortals.

Define anchor and integrate.

How does Dionysus anchor and integrate the greater cosmos into the lives and purposes of mortals?

But nothing in the stories suggests that there actually exist gods in the world, being who created mortals and their world for some purpose and who are intimately bound up in the realisation of that purpose.

Most D&D gods and even in mythology didn't create mortals and their world. This is certainly not the most commonly view definition neither is it D&D's definition. One has to query why you are giving such a narrow definition for deities.

According to the above, you're proposing Gilean of DL is not a deity at all.

(Of course, if by deity you mean being worshipped by (some) humans then the Great Old Ones are deities, in the sense that there exist cults of worshippers and so on. But in that sense a PC can be a "deity", as a PC can establish groups of worshippers.

I would imagine one of the primary criteria for one to be considered a deity, would be that one be supernatural (in the common sense of the word). Pharaohs were not supernatural despite being 'worshipped'.

EDIT: To add - Pemerton why is it you define clerics, wizards, warlocks and paladins according to D&D terminology, but when it comes to deities you seem to adopt a rather different view altogether?

 

[guachi]

the question should be whether Crom existiert. Set and Mitra both exist as a fact of the setting,

It doesn't matter whether Crom exists. It doesn't matter whether any gods actually exist. All that matters is the belief of the followers and the characteristics of the being (or beings) they worship.

Does the being worshipped have the characteristics of a deity or not? Existence is immaterial. Otherwise, I'd claim that Christianity is non-theistic because the deity Christians worship doesn't exist.

 

[Yaarel]

For me, the difference between an agnostic setting that includes polytheists among other kinds of religion, is qualitatively different from a polytheistic setting that features objectively existing gods to be worshiped.

They are unlike each other.

Eberron ≠ Planescape

 

[Mirtek]

It doesn't matter whether Crom exists. It doesn't matter whether any gods actually exist. All that matters is the belief of the followers and the characteristics of the being (or beings) they worship.

As far as i unterstand Yaarel it's all that matters. He's fine with a polytheistic setting, as long as the setting doesn't confirm that they are right.

Likewise a setting that only has monotheistic mortals but states the existence of a second deity unknown to all beings in the setting would bother him.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

For me, the difference between an agnostic setting that includes polytheists among other kinds of religion, is qualitatively different from a polytheistic setting that features objectively existing gods to be worshiped.

They are unlike each other.

Eberron ≠ Planescape

Is Eberron agnostic? Several of its deities have a provable existence. A character can travel to Flamekeep and directly see the gout of silver fire that erupts there for example.

Very few beings in Eberron are agnostic: even dedicated worshippers of the Silver Flame, or Blood of Vol believe in the existence of the Sovereign Host.

 

[Yaarel]

Is Eberron agnostic? Several of its deities have a provable existence. A character can travel to Flamekeep and directly see the gout of silver fire that erupts there for example.

Very few beings in Eberron are agnostic: even dedicated worshippers of the Silver Flame, or Blood of Vol believe in the existence of the Sovereign Host.

I dont get too deep into the lore of Eberron. (Heh, and its creator advises not to.)

But as far as I know, ‘gods’ dont objectively exist.

For example, the Silver Flame (generally characterized as monotheistic) associates with various magical phenomena, such as a supernaturally empowered ‘Prophet’. Nevertheless, the question remains about the source of this magic, is it the community or is a divine infinity intervening in the physical world.

In Eberron, mutually conflictive claims can perform miracles.

A DM can decide what the ‘truth’ is, or the DM can intentionally leave the situation mysterious.

 

[Caliban]

Remember. Don't hate the game. Hate the players. They're the ones always mucking things up, robbing tombs, interfering with NPC plots, and questioning reality.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But as far as I know, ‘gods’ dont objectively exist.

"Gods" (as in the Sovereign Host + Dark Six) don't objectively exist, although almost all the inhabitants of Eberron believe in them. Sources of divine power that can be the deity of a cleric, however, do.

For example, the Silver Flame (generally characterized as monotheistic) associates with various magical phenomena, such as a supernaturally empowered ‘Prophet’. Nevertheless, the question remains about the source of this magic, is it the community or is a divine infinity intervening in the physical world.

The Silver Flame is most definitely not monotheistic. It does not deny the existence of the Sovereign Host. The greatest figure in the human side of the religion was a worshipper of one of them.
The source of the Silver Flame is reasonably well known: it is a gestalt of the souls of the Coatl race, who sacrificed themselves to imprison the fiends at the end of the Age of Demons. It is a force that exists to defend against supernatural evil, and will sometimes empower a person who seeks to do that. Followers believe that righteous souls join with the flame to strengthen it when they die.

In Eberron, mutually conflictive claims can perform miracles.

Because it is the faith of the user that empowers them. None of the major religions in Eberron conflict about the existence of each other. Even the Blood of Vol might believe that all the gods are evil, but it still believes that they exist.

None of this means that a DM can't decide to mix things up a bit, and decree that there is a single divine power that empowers all faith-based magic and phenomena, outside of its users. It could derive from the spirit of Siberys, or some divine infinite.

I think that you might find this: https://manifest.zone/04-religion/ interesting to listen to. It touches on a number of points that have been discussed.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

That's not a necessity, though. You could have clerics simply manifest through faith alone, and leave the issue of whether gods exist or not nebulous.

Absolutely. But, that's not what's written. No reason why you can't change it, it's just not the way the D&D multiverse is designed.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

The world of Conan is one where there are multiple gods and manifestations, whether supported among the masses (via clerics) or not. But what passes for clerics worship one god exclusively. So....

That's the same as Forgotten Realms, or pretty much any D&D setting - clerics worship one god exclusively.