D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Maxperson]

I dont get too deep into the lore of Eberron. (Heh, and its creator advises not to.)

But as far as I know, ‘gods’ dont objectively exist.

For example, the Silver Flame (generally characterized as monotheistic) associates with various magical phenomena, such as a supernaturally empowered ‘Prophet’. Nevertheless, the question remains about the source of this magic, is it the community or is a divine infinity intervening in the physical world.

In Eberron, mutually conflictive claims can perform miracles.

A DM can decide what the ‘truth’ is, or the DM can intentionally leave the situation mysterious.

Just want to throw that out there since you mentioned Planescape a bit ago. Planescape has this, and the DM can also decide what the "truth" is or leave it myserious.

Athar

("Defiers", "The Lost"), who deny not only the gods' right to pass judgment over mortals, but their very divinity. They claim that the gods (whom they call "powers") are powerful but have limits and do not deserve worship. Instead, Athar priests channel divine power from what they call the "Great Unknown", or what they believe to be the true divine force behind everything. Their headquarters in Sigil is the Shattered Temple, the former temple of the dead god Aoskar. The Athar are broadly derived from real-world atheists, agnostics, and Deists.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It doesn't matter whether Crom exists. It doesn't matter whether any gods actually exist. All that matters is the belief of the followers and the characteristics of the being (or beings) they worship.

Does the being worshipped have the characteristics of a deity or not? Existence is immaterial. Otherwise, I'd claim that Christianity is non-theistic because the deity Christians worship doesn't exist.

And that's the problem with D&D "gods." They don't have the characteristics of a deity. In fact, they cannot have those characteristics because they exist only as emulations in the mind of a finite, and fallible DM. At best a D&D god can be omnipotent; it cannot be omniscient or infallible, because the DM isn't infallible.

This is why, for example, prophecies can work in fantasy novels but do not work well in TTRPGs: it isn't possible to cleverly predict the course of an entire campaign and then build that history into a prophecy which is revealed to the players at the beginning of the campaign. Even a simple prophecy like "You will live to return home safely" can't work in D&D unless you brute-force it with power instead of knowledge, e.g. by shielding the PC from harm when he's about to fail his last death save, or by bringing him back to life after he dies.

If one of the characteristics of a God is the ability to always keep your promises because you both have all power and know the end from the beginning, well, nothing in D&D can be a God, unless your DM is himself a God.

 

[Azzy]

Absolutely. But, that's not what's written. No reason why you can't change it, it's just not the way the D&D multiverse is designed.

Yeah, but you don't have to use the D&D multiverse, much like you don't have to use the Forgotten Realms, or Dragonlance, or Eberrron, etc.

 

[Shasarak]

the question should be whether Crom existiert. Set and Mitra both exist as a fact of the setting,

That is irrelevant for worshiping purposes.

 

[Mirtek]

That is irrelevant for worshiping purposes.

But the problem some have is not with settings with polytheistic worship, but only with settings that show the polytheists to be right. As long as the setting doesn't confirm the polytheists, they're for some reason OK with them.

So if the setting confirms that Crom is indeed brooding on his mountain throne ignoring all mortals, than it's bad for forcing polytheism down their throat, but if it's unknown whether Crom truly exists and the barbarian might just believe in an empty lie, then all is OK.

 

[Shasarak]

But the problem some have is not with settings with polytheistic worship, but only with settings that show the polytheists to be right. As long as the setting doesn't confirm the polytheists, they're for some reason OK with them.

Conan essentially proves that Crom does exist by successfully getting his revenge on the ones that destroyed his village:

Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then the HELL with you!

 

[cbwjm]

the question should be whether Crom existiert. Set and Mitra both exist as a fact of the setting,

So does Ymir, who saves his daughter in the story Frost Giant's Daughter after she entreats him. There are a number of gods worshipped in the setting. They could all just be powerful entities but then so are the gods in D&D.

 

[dagger]

This thread:

 

[Selvarin]

See, I don't think you really have to change those at all. It's no problem for me to envision a single god who judges souls on their actions and places them on a different plane for all of eternity. I'd leave the planes alone. The same with demons, devils, angels, etc. Demons are varied and some are called devils, demodands, and yugoloths.

I can also see where those changes might be made. It's really up to the DM to decide how much he wants to change, but if you want to make an quick easy change to monotheism, leave that stuff alone.

I think this largely depends on the group. None of my players would bat an eyelash at that.

That's what I was thinking. Look at today's real world religions. Most are based upon one god/deity, but within that belief system there are multiple sects. I could see where one group versions an aspect of Deity X in a specific way (and gaining different power or domain) while another takes a divergent form. And yet another is more heretical, etc. etc....in that case there's a monotheistic setting but still some variation. And it isn't hard to do at all.

As for the elven cleric in the Scarred Lands, I could see some RP value from either allowing or disallowing worship of a dead god. A lot to work (i.e., story lines)with right there.

 

[Selvarin]

That's the same as Forgotten Realms, or pretty much any D&D setting - clerics worship one god exclusively.

Al Qadim (AD&D/FR) allowed for pantheist clerics, clerics who worship one god exclusively, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qadim


Really, this whole cleric/deity thing is not as difficult as some make it to be.