D&D 5E (2014) Mearls on other settings

[Remathilis]

Not all of us still own what we used to own.

I had the Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft boxed sets during AD&D 2e, but I have moved several times since then and they have either been badly damaged or lost over the years. I have other books from previous editions that have fared better, but I'd gladly purchase mechanically updated reprints of the ones that were lost or badly damaged.

Tell me about it; I'd KILL for a reprint of the Planeswalker's Handbook that isn't duct-taped and missing pages, but the paper-copies and stupid-expensive.

 

[MechaPilot]

You get it!

Its far more interesting to look at a class like paladin, warlock or sorcerer and then say "how does this fit in this world?" rather than discard it entirely. Not everything will fit in every world, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. If a "purist" DM doesn't want clerics, tieflings, or such in Dark Sun, they can say "no". But its a lot easier to get rid of something than it is to try and put something back into the world. A hypothetical Dark Sun setting should try to get nearly all the classes and as many races as it can (that make sense; I don't advocate for tritons on Athas) but much like the rules itself, its easier to have a default "on switch" that DMs can turn off than have everything turned off by default and force the DM to do the hard work of figuring out how it fits.

This is true of any setting really; the first response to "how does X fit" shouldn't be "it doesn't, ban it", that should be the LAST resort.

And again, I don't mean Dark Sun should use the FR/Generic inspired looks and "fluff", even some mechanical differences (such as subraces to represent the Athasian variants) is fine. I don't need orcs in Dragonlance either, but I want to feel I'm playing a D&D game with some variance, not a new game. I want to explore what a Paladin (a champion who has sworn an oath and recv'd power from it) is in Dark Sun, not be told outright it has no place.

WotC's job it to show me how to say "yes", since I already can say "no" on my own.

I disagree, at least in part.

"It doesn't" is a perfectly valid first response to "how does _____ fit?"

Assuming the item in question is not modified so that it fits with the themes and character of the setting, then banning it is also a reasonable response.

In between those steps, however, lies "can this be modified so it fits with the themes and character of the setting?" Now, the answer to that will always be yes. But, you also have to ask yourself if that modification results in something so different that it's something new (which should be allowed instead), or if it's close enough to be a simple variant.

Also, WotC really should provide some context. Is it very easy to say no to something? Of course it is. But, what if you are new to a setting and are therefore unaware that ______ doesn't fit with the intended character of a setting? WotC really should be both giving people a way to include things, but also informing readers of the reasons for a setting having intentionally excluded things when it was created.

 

[Obryn]

Or using the 4E Darksun for example (most people don't bother defending 4E FR any more). They set the timeline just after Kalaks death which is fairly close to the original boxed set. Thats fine (I would prefer Kalak to be aloive) but then they contradicted the setting and themes by adding in teleporting elves (on a low magic world), Dragonborn as Dray they were hidden in the original material and were a secret, also Dragonmen on a world with 1 Dragon as far as the world was aware. Dray also did not turn up to 9 years after the 4E timeline. Oh they removed clerics as well because Darksun had no gods because the 4E cleric was not suited to Darksun and it would have been to much work o design 4 new cleric options I suppose as each one would have needed 11-15 pages (2E managed with around 2 or 3 pages). Oh and 4E had rapid healing as well.

Hey, [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] this is exactly the kind of 2e purism I was referring to.

I found the 4e Dark Sun conversion to be both thoughtful and well-executed. If that's your take on how the Eladrin and Dray were implemented ... uh ... I think you're bringing in baggage well outside what was contained within the 4e DSCS. They were included thoughtfully, and with an eye to lore. No, they were not in the original box set. No, that does not mean they don't fit perfectly well. Had they been around in 1990, they would have slid in fine alongside the other core options like half-giants and thri-kreen. (If you're unfamiliar with the Dark Sun eladrin, here's their write-up. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd use for an adventure hook, and which could be found in any of the 2e adventures.)

Yep, the 4e cleric would be a terrible fit for Dark Sun. Agreed. No, it was not worth making a whole new class just to have a thing called "elemental cleric." Fortunately, there was an existing Primal class that fit in just great, and filled a very similar niche.

And really, come on. With how mutated all of Athas is, the idea that stuff simply can't exist somewhere out in the Wastes is laughable.

Basically 4E was not a good fit for DS as the game contradicted major themes of the setting and the way they did it. Had they bothered with a decent conversion, gave everyone 1 or 2 healing surges and did justice to the original material it would have been better.

This is the same setting that turned the 2e PCs into larger-than-life protagonists, giving everyone ability scores up to 24, free wild talents, maybe 4 attacks per round, and starting them at Level 3. And you're complaining about healing surges.

 

[MechaPilot]

Hey, [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] this is exactly the kind of 2e purism I was referring to.

I'd love to help you with that, but Zardnaar isn't my PC. You'll have to ask other people at the table.

Also, Zard and I have gone rounds on similar issues before. Namely, the inclusion of dragonborn, tieflings, etc in the 5e PHB. I was for, he was against.

 

[Shasarak]

I don't know that much about the other settings (Birthright, Spelljammer, Council of Wyrms). Anything I said would be conjecture. My gut is that some are pretty close to "base-line", but I really don't know.

I believe that I am qualified to state that Spelljammer is essentially DnD in Space.

 

[Remathilis]

I disagree, at least in part.

"It doesn't" is a perfectly valid first response to "how does _____ fit?"

Assuming the item in question is not modified so that it fits with the themes and character of the setting, then banning it is also a reasonable response.

In between those steps, however, lies "can this be modified so it fits with the themes and character of the setting?" Now, the answer to that will always be yes. But, you also have to ask yourself if that modification results in something so different that it's something new (which should be allowed instead), or if it's close enough to be a simple variant.

Also, WotC really should provide some context. Is it very easy to say no to something? Of course it is. But, what if you are new to a setting and are therefore unaware that ______ doesn't fit with the intended character of a setting? WotC really should be both giving people a way to include things, but also informing readers of the reasons for a setting having intentionally excluded things when it was created.

Look at Orbyn's example on Eladrin in my quoted post. Eladrin are Super-Elves who live in the Fairie plane. On surface, it'd be really easy to say "they don't fit Athas" and not allow them. Especially since they had no "historical" prescident before 4e either. Yet WotC found a way to integrate them. That is so much cooler than "Due to the lack of connection to the Feywild, there are no Eladrin on Athas".

There are times hardline no's cannot be avoided (orcs on Athas or Krynn for example) but those should be things that are important to the setting (such as orc's role in the game going to draconians). But I'd rather see those moments be fewer and poignant rather than "its not the way it was in 2e". Anyone who wants to use the world as it was in 2e is a PDF on DM's Guild away; the updated versions should be UPDATED.

The 4e Dark Sun and Eberron, 3e Realms and Dragonlance, and Arthaus Ravenloft should be the Gold Standard on how to make a setting fit with a new edition's rules. I think if WotC has any honest intention of updating those settings, they will resemble THOSE products closer* than the 1e/2e box set versions.

Personally, I hope I can roll-up a Dray (dragonborn) Warlock (templar pact) in 5e Dark Sun. Grow and evolve.

 

[Shasarak]

A $50 5e Eberron Campaign Setting or Dark Sun Campaign Setting book that is literally a retread of older campaign books but with 20 pages worth of character options is not a product I'm interested in, and I can't imagine why anyone else would be.

Because reprinting old material is in right now.

 

[Obryn]

WotC's job it to show me how to say "yes", since I already can say "no" on my own.

Yeah. There's a difference between "Wasn't there 20 years ago" and "Wildly inappropriate for the setting's themes, even after tweaks."

For example. I mentioned this briefly, but Warforged in Dark Sun. The hell I say, right?

So let's make them experiments of the Sorcerer-Kings, semi-undead, secret immortal beings of bone, leather, and obsidian that have been implanted with the life-forces of mortals. Perfect servants who can keep close watch on their lords even in the midst of the vilest rituals of defiling and who can keep tireless guard without any sustenance save a bit of regular defiling to feed the life-spark within them. With the death of Kalak, his warforged have found themselves suddenly free to try and find their place in the world. Some embraced their defiling natures, keeping faith with the dead Tyrant, while others are seeking to atone for the regular destruction that sustains their strange quasi-life.

Workable? Not altogether crazy?

I'd love to help you with that, but Zardnaar isn't my PC. You'll have to ask other people at the table.

Also, Zard and I have gone rounds on similar issues before. Namely, the inclusion of dragonborn, tieflings, etc in the 5e PHB. I was for, he was against.

Hey you just said you've never seen it. I was just saying, "uhhhh..."

 

[Zardnaar]

Hey, [MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] this is exactly the kind of 2e purism I was referring to.

I found the 4e Dark Sun conversion to be both thoughtful and well-executed. If that's your take on how the Eladrin and Dray were implemented ... uh ... I think you're bringing in baggage well outside what was contained within the 4e DSCS. They were included thoughtfully, and with an eye to lore. No, they were not in the original box set. No, that does not mean they don't fit perfectly well. Had they been around in 1990, they would have slid in fine alongside the other core options like half-giants and thri-kreen. (If you're unfamiliar with the Dark Sun eladrin, here's their write-up. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd use for an adventure hook, and which could be found in any of the 2e adventures.)

Yep, the 4e cleric would be a terrible fit for Dark Sun. Agreed. No, it was not worth making a whole new class just to have a thing called "elemental cleric." Fortunately, there was an existing Primal class that fit in just great, and filled a very similar niche.

And really, come on. With how mutated all of Athas is, the idea that stuff simply can't exist somewhere out in the Wastes is laughable.


This is the same setting that turned the 2e PCs into larger-than-life protagonists, giving everyone ability scores up to 24, free wild talents, maybe 4 attacks per round, and starting them at Level 3. And you're complaining about healing surges.

The enhanced ability score, DS races and wild talents were Darksun though it was different to the PHB and that is what a campaign setting should be.

Its also the change they made to the Templars having them as arcane casters where them and the clerics drew their power from the same sources.

The Eladrin thing as I said, low magic world, teleporting elves.

At east the l4E conversion was not as bad as 4E Relams. Since they have dumped the 4Eisms of the Realms if they ever do Darksun again I am confidant they will do the right thing and Mearls is a 2E fan. 4E Darksun was not universally awful the art was decent for the most part, and the timeline idea was not without merit.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'd love to help you with that, but Zardnaar isn't my PC. You'll have to ask other people at the table.

Also, Zard and I have gone rounds on similar issues before. Namely, the inclusion of dragonborn, tieflings, etc in the 5e PHB. I was for, he was against.

And they took the path that was suggested on the WoTC forums they made them optional, only 4 core races and it seems a lot of DMs do not allow them. I'm not a fan of tieflings either although they are fine in Planescape and FR to a lesser extent although I do not play modern FR timeline except for the APs and when I do I play in the 14th century.

If they updated 4E Darksun to 5E I would do the same thing I did then and not buy it. Enough gamers made that decision to bury 4E.

If you want to run around with Kender Wild Mages, and Dragonborn Paladins and Teifling Warlocks you have the core rules, FR and Nerath to do that why defile Athas?