D&D 5E status of 5e poison in summer 2017

[CapnZapp]

Small nitpick, but poison gas can very much apply in combat if it is stored in something that breaks when thrown.

And while I guess this would be more of a houserule and not an answer RAW, but a blade using up the poison coating on a hit or not should rely on what kind of hit it is and how viscous, or sticky, the poison is. A stab wound with a non-sticky poison? Gone in one successful attack, this kind of poison should be really cheap and weak, since it is basically a one-shot poisoning. A double-edged blade that hits with a slashing attack? Common sense says at least one edge still has poison on it. Any kind of weapon that can break skin/draw blood to deliver the poison coated with a sticky poison should last for several attacks, except for missile ammunition, since that is always used up on a successful hit.

In general, I am not a fan of poisons that just to a little something over several rounds. It should have it's full force hit as soon as it goes into effect, whether that is sickness, paralysis, unconsciousness, or death, pending saving throws, of course, for reduced effectiveness.

It should, eh?

The biggest issue is why then not do that every round?

This gives you a huge nova, and balance goes out the window.

The bottom line is that we can't (I won't) forget it's a game. It's not just literature. A mechanism can feel all sorts of realistic, but it can still be useless if it breaks the game.

I've already agreed there is a time and place for the kind of poison Arya uses in Game of Thrones.

That time and place is not what I'm talking about here.

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[CapnZapp]

Let me look at this from another angle - what character build gives up anything for poison in such a way that adding poison brings up to "not overpowerered, not useless".

Because the main problem I see is for a "poison build" is that you can add poison to any build and if poison adds effectiveness, it will add it to other builds as well to make them even better - i.e. overpowered.

So it would seem that to have a reasonable poison build, you would need to have a subclass or feat or something where the opportunity cost would offset the bonuses you get. In other words, you can't balance any regularly used, large effect poisons without also taking something away, which needs to happen in the character creation/leveling process.

I don't disagree.

I just feel that's an impracticably large undertaking.

All I want is a framework that works for Assassin rogues, a class and build that definitely isn't top tier (especially in my group of chaotic neutrals where ambush plans always fail...)

Cheers

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[CapnZapp]

Is poison use still considered an Evil act in 5e?

If it is, that right there will in theory deter a great number of heroic goodly types from using it...

Other than that, [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] is right in that if the benefits of poison use don't come with some sort of drawback (beyond just fumbling into yourself now and then) there's no logical reason why all characters won't just do it.

And consider this: if you allow for poison use in combat as the OP seems to want to do then you're by default declaring that all h.p. are at least partly "meat", to allow for the scratch or nick or other physical wound through which the poison enters.

Lan-"and of course what benefits the PCs would logically equally benefit their enemies"-efan

Sure. But the rules already support heroic non-users... I want support for rogue assassins that ask me what their poison kit proficiency is for!

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[Lanefan]

Sure. But the rules already support heroic non-users... �� I want support for rogue assassins that ask me what their poison kit proficiency is for!

Maybe tell them it's for other thngs besides combat? That they know how to properly mix poisons for a desired effect, that they know how to mask them in other substances e.g. food or drink, how to safely apply contact poison to a surface, how to incorporate poison into a trap, and - perhaps most importantly - know what to do and what makes the best antidote if they or someone else gets poisoned.

Lan-"it's not all about combat"-efan

 

[CapnZapp]

Maybe tell them it's for other thngs besides combat? That they know how to properly mix poisons for a desired effect, that they know how to mask them in other substances e.g. food or drink, how to safely apply contact poison to a surface, how to incorporate poison into a trap, and - perhaps most importantly - know what to do and what makes the best antidote if they or someone else gets poisoned.

Lan-"it's not all about combat"-efan

In this thread it IS all about combat

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[Ath'kethin]

I don't disagree.

I just feel that's an impracticably large undertaking.

All I want is a framework that works for Assassin rogues, a class and build that definitely isn't top tier (especially in my group of chaotic neutrals �� where ambush plans always fail...)

Cheers

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In my campaign that included the Poisoner, we had all met playing in a local AL game. Three of us in that group had played Rogues (each a different subclass, and by pure coincidence). The guy who played the Poisoner in my campaign had been a monk in the AL game and was impressed enough by our Rogues to try one out.

The Poisoner in the Thule book gives up Sneak Attack for the poison feature. We all agreed that it was an even trade after seeing the Poisoner in play.

So I'm not sure the class will scratch your itch exactly, if you want to make an already devastatingly effective class even more devastating. The Poisoner is really just a different way to be the heaviest hitter at the table, not a way to make a heavy hitter hit even heavier.