A little of both - for the cantrip I roll a d6 and if I roll high it comes out as "fire blot" instead of "fire bolt". I'll choose to cast chromatic orb, but then randomly roll for the damage type. When he casts burning hands I describe him as being panicky and overexcited, causing fire bolt to flare into a fan of flames.
D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?
- Thread starter Carlsen Chris
- Start date
A little of both - for the cantrip I roll a d6 and if I roll high it comes out as "fire blot" instead of "fire bolt". I'll choose to cast chromatic orb, but then randomly roll for the damage type. When he casts burning hands I describe him as being panicky and overexcited, causing fire bolt to flare into a fan of flames.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
Eh, random quirk tables never really sold me. I guess it just seemed too random and arbitrary? Besides, it's not nearly as strong of a hook for the character, since it doesn't tie it into how the class functions within the setting as a whole.
A table where you could randomly roll to be left-handed isn't nearly as inspiring as having a Witch class where all witches are always left-handed. In the former, you're still just the generic witch concept attached to the generic left-handed concept. In the latter, you have the left-handed aspect building upon the witch aspect, and the whole perception of the character which that builds within society.
MechaPilot
Explorer
Your reasoning there is flawed. The greatweapon masters (or whatever) will only look the same if the different people who choose to play them all want the same things from them. The method that offers greater freedom of choice offers as much opportunity to choose to be different as it offers opportunity to be the same.
MechaPilot
Explorer
I agree in that I don't care for the randomness. However, the tables often offered a good source of inspiration for coming up with or choosing your own character quirks.
You're talking setting-specific situations now. I have no issue with people altering things to create their own worlds, or with published setting books doing the same. I do have an issue with the base game foisting such things on other settings where the flavor doesn't fit by making it an inherent part of the class.
Celebrim
Legend
I partially agree. It depends very much on implementation and the aesthetic goals of the players. You are correct in theory, but it rarely works that way out in practice.
One of the reasons that I eventually decided I liked class based chargen more than point buy chargen, as in practice I found point buy chargen in many systems frequently lead to predictably narrow Johnny One-Trick characters that had invested all of their points in being awesome at one thing. Depending on the system, you can be heavily punished for not doing that. So for example, WoD systems ironically heavily punished players for creating story based characters as opposed to one dimensional mechanically based characters. GURPS is nearly as bad.
And once characters are pushed toward being mechanically based, you end up with just the illusion of choice as in the long run all characters get honed into certain known optimized builds, often refined down to one build for each of the things you can be good at.
As a proof test of this, try sitting down for a few moments and comparing the different D&D characters you come up with between generating ability scores with 4d6, drop one and you can't rearrange the rolls, and characters you build with standard point buy or with the ability to rearrange the rolls to taste. The first forces you to build more diverse characters that you either can or would likely build yourself, while the second pushes you to conform the results to what you know would be most functional for the character type. This raises the puzzling counter-intuitive prospect that slightly limited choice may result in more creativity than fully unlimited choice. That limited choice actually prompts inspiration in a way that unlimited choice doesn't necessarily.
Now, I don't actually use random stats because the benefits are outweighed by the drawbacks, but I do miss the creativity and diversity that they could at the best of times prompt. On the other hand, in my experience most players rarely actually wanted to access that diversity. They really preferred the more optimal and/or successful results.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
That makes a lot of sense, then. You're saying that the base game should be much more generic, with the world-building left for other books. I want the base game to be as integrated with the setting as possible. There are already a lot of setting-specific details in there, such as dragonborn and Mordenkainen, and it's always easier to remove restrictions than to add them.
MechaPilot
Explorer
Bolded for emphasis
"The setting" implies or assumes that there is only one setting. D&D has a diversity of settings, all the more so when you consider that "homebrew" is the second most popular setting among the fans.
When the base game binds classes to settings as part of the default, then you have to unravel those bonds when you play any other setting. It's far more logical for the base game to be as flexible as possible and to have the material that details the different settings provide the ties that bind classes to those settings.
Also. . .
1) Dragonborn are not setting specific, and
2) Mordenkainen, presumably, was a powerful enough wizard to engage in planar travel, and for his name and magical legacy to spread among many of the published D&D worlds.
Helldritch
Hero
@Caliban
Again you miss the point. You said it yourself. You counciously, purposely chose to do what you wanted to do. Nothing in the character's creation nudged you in a particuliar direction. And aside from the very entertaining stories, your blade locks basicaly look like anyother blade lock I have seen and heard about. We're not discussing background stories. We're discussing on how min/max racial/class stats can and will influence your choice.
You might have the most comprehensive background tables ever made, it will be a counscious, willfuly choice that you or your DM will have made. Nothing in "tables" or "background stories" will beat what a player will make up to circumvent a situation. The example of Kalian, working his way into paladinhood is one of many example I have seen.
What you described is again, something that new players will rarely do. Yes there are some players out there that will do this spontaneously, but they're not the majority. On the other hand, I have seen dozens upon dozens of players forced into role play mode after rolling some strange sets of attributes just to get into a class.
@MechaPilot
I will disagree. If you have had any min/maxer in your games. You'll see that they, invariably, follow the same path. Starting stats: 15, 8, 14, 10 or 13, 12, 13 or 10. If variant humans are allowed 1 point in strenght, and one in the 13 where ever it is. (int for the eldritch knight variant, cha for the blade lock variant). Already two different choice? Wow... Again a counscious choice. If you keep the fighter a champion or a battle master it won't matter. Progression will stay the same from one character to another. Yes with the right background, the right player differences will abound, the logic behind the progression won't.
The feat taken will be obviously GWM. Then level 4. ASI into Strength. Level 6, ASI into Strength again. Level 8. ASI into Constitution. Level 12 ASI into Constitution, Level 14 ASI into Constitution again if the campaign goes that far. May be the Tough feat could be sneaked in somewhere.
But take the example of a player who rolled. 14, 15, 14, 10, 6, 14. Ho man... my life is broken, I wanted to do a great weapon master and now I am stuck with a bad array... I'll do one anyway. Stat placement Maybe St and Dex? Feat? Great weapon master. The player starts as a great weapon weilder. Maybe along the way he'll chose medium armor master? Raise is St and Dex at level 6. Dip into the warlock class to get a bit of an extra whomp for a few levels. Now I can imagine a player making a pact to get power and going to every extent possible to find those gauntlets of ogre's power. Some items becomes quite important when you know that the high strength is not that reachable. A 16 might become satisfactory.
A set up like this can bring great role play. Even a totaly perfect beginner will have to role play it through. Especialy if the DM demands a Role Play reason to dip into an other class. Here the player would be more or less nudge into the warlock or sorcerer style. But what if he chose paladin hood instead? He could get an other fighting style (probably defense). Would get the lay on hand. Who knows?
Yes you can do that with the point buy. But you probably won't do it unless you are an experienced player. Most novice will stick to what they have. Race and Class min/max attribute can give the little nudge they need to get into it.
Again you miss the point. You said it yourself. You counciously, purposely chose to do what you wanted to do. Nothing in the character's creation nudged you in a particuliar direction. And aside from the very entertaining stories, your blade locks basicaly look like anyother blade lock I have seen and heard about. We're not discussing background stories. We're discussing on how min/max racial/class stats can and will influence your choice.
You might have the most comprehensive background tables ever made, it will be a counscious, willfuly choice that you or your DM will have made. Nothing in "tables" or "background stories" will beat what a player will make up to circumvent a situation. The example of Kalian, working his way into paladinhood is one of many example I have seen.
What you described is again, something that new players will rarely do. Yes there are some players out there that will do this spontaneously, but they're not the majority. On the other hand, I have seen dozens upon dozens of players forced into role play mode after rolling some strange sets of attributes just to get into a class.
@MechaPilot
I will disagree. If you have had any min/maxer in your games. You'll see that they, invariably, follow the same path. Starting stats: 15, 8, 14, 10 or 13, 12, 13 or 10. If variant humans are allowed 1 point in strenght, and one in the 13 where ever it is. (int for the eldritch knight variant, cha for the blade lock variant). Already two different choice? Wow... Again a counscious choice. If you keep the fighter a champion or a battle master it won't matter. Progression will stay the same from one character to another. Yes with the right background, the right player differences will abound, the logic behind the progression won't.
The feat taken will be obviously GWM. Then level 4. ASI into Strength. Level 6, ASI into Strength again. Level 8. ASI into Constitution. Level 12 ASI into Constitution, Level 14 ASI into Constitution again if the campaign goes that far. May be the Tough feat could be sneaked in somewhere.
But take the example of a player who rolled. 14, 15, 14, 10, 6, 14. Ho man... my life is broken, I wanted to do a great weapon master and now I am stuck with a bad array... I'll do one anyway. Stat placement Maybe St and Dex? Feat? Great weapon master. The player starts as a great weapon weilder. Maybe along the way he'll chose medium armor master? Raise is St and Dex at level 6. Dip into the warlock class to get a bit of an extra whomp for a few levels. Now I can imagine a player making a pact to get power and going to every extent possible to find those gauntlets of ogre's power. Some items becomes quite important when you know that the high strength is not that reachable. A 16 might become satisfactory.
A set up like this can bring great role play. Even a totaly perfect beginner will have to role play it through. Especialy if the DM demands a Role Play reason to dip into an other class. Here the player would be more or less nudge into the warlock or sorcerer style. But what if he chose paladin hood instead? He could get an other fighting style (probably defense). Would get the lay on hand. Who knows?
Yes you can do that with the point buy. But you probably won't do it unless you are an experienced player. Most novice will stick to what they have. Race and Class min/max attribute can give the little nudge they need to get into it.
