D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

[FrogReaver]

But what's at stake here? A: some people's level of comfort. B: some people's ability to lead full lives. Which one is more important? You're asking for folks to be mindful of the "other side's" comfort, but who's got the most to lose by acquiescing? The people who are uncomfortable with seeing open displays of homosexuality and homoromanticism, or the sexual minorities themselves?

If you think respecting others comfort zones affects your ability to lead a full life then something is wrong. Now if their comfort zone was gays cannot exist that would be a different story. But if the comfort zone is we are not comfortable seeing public displays of homo affection isn't that a bit different? I'm not asking you to go away or not exist, just asking you to respect me. Maybe some point we will even come around to being okay with it as the occasional slip up is seen and forgiven and as we as a society gets more used to it. But doing it what I would call the right way isn't going to give gays instant gratification. It will take time.

 

[MechaPilot]

Right. Now what if I was to say that many hetero people are not comfortable with homo public displays of affection. Is the best reaction, we exist and are the same so we don't care get over it. Or is the better reaction something else? Something closer to how you handled the skinhead in your d&d group?

Well, we have some very real differences here.

First, a tasteful but loving display of affection (by either a hetero- or homo-sexual couple) is not the same as a skinhead repeating hatemongering BS.

Secondly, the skinhead was at a privately held game where I could place conditions on his remaining, he was not in a public place he had every right to independently be in.

Thirdly, I told my skinhead friend he could stay if he could leave the racist crap at the door. I wanted people to feel welcomed and equally respected at my table (and I still do want that). It is neither welcoming nor the giving of equal respect if hetersexual couples are allowed to make tasteful displays of affection while homosexual couples are not.

 

[Teemu]

If you think respecting others comfort zones affects your ability to lead a full life then something is wrong. Now if their comfort zone was gays cannot exist that would be a different story. But if the comfort zone is we are not comfortable seeing public displays of homo affection isn't that a bit different? I'm not asking you to go away or not exist, just asking you to respect me. Maybe some point we will even come around to being okay with it as the occasional slip up is seen and forgiven and as we as a society gets more used to it. But doing it what I would call the right way isn't going to give gays instant gratification. It will take time.

But are you equally opposed to public displays of heterosexual affection? Do you oppose opposite sex couples holding hands in public? Giving a peck on the cheek or lips? Hugging? Emerging out of the church doors into public space after getting married?

The large majority of people are not opposed to all that in our Western society. But you're asking one section of the population to hide that part of themselves in the public space, just because you're uncomfortable seeing it. Could you imagine if you were told not to wear the color blue in public because it made some people uncomfortable -- while at the same time allowing it for others? Why is your comfort more important?

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, we have some very real differences here.

First, a tasteful but loving display of affection (by either a hetero- or homo-sexual couple) is not the same as a skinhead repeating hatemongering BS.

Secondly, the skinhead was at a privately held game where I could place conditions on his remaining, he was not in a public place he had every right to independently be in.

Thirdly, I told my skinhead friend he could stay if he could leave the racist crap at the door. I wanted people to feel welcomed and equally respected at my table (and I still do want that). It is neither welcoming nor the giving of equal respect if hetersexual couples are allowed to make tasteful displays of affection while homosexual couples are not.

Homo's as you mentioned are okay with hetero displays. Many hetero's are not okay with homo displays. Hetero's are respecting the homo comfort zone. Homo's are not respecting the hetero comfort zone. How is that not equal respect?

Respect isn't about both groups getting to do the same actions as each other. It's about refraining doing something another person or group finds uncomfortable. Equal respect doesn't equate to equal actions.

 

[Satyrn]

Thats kinda how I felt when discovering the directors of one of my favorite movies, The Matrix, are two transsexual twins.

Really? Huh.

I thought it was just one of them.

 

[FrogReaver]

But are you equally opposed to public displays of heterosexual affection? Do you oppose opposite sex couples holding hands in public? Giving a peck on the cheek or lips? Hugging? Emerging out of the church doors into public space after getting married?

The large majority of people are not opposed to all that in our Western society. But you're asking one section of the population to hide that part of themselves in the public space, just because you're uncomfortable seeing it. Could you imagine if you were told not to wear the color blue in public because it made some people uncomfortable -- while at the same time allowing it for others? Why is your comfort more important?

Gay's aren't uncomfortable with hetero displays of affection. If anything they are envious.

The issue is called mutual respect. Mutual respect will lead to the best outcomes but those outcomes won't occur instantly. Instead they will take time. I firmly believe that equality without respect is never equal.

 

[Teemu]

Gay's aren't uncomfortable with hetero displays of affection. If anything they are envious.

The issue is called mutual respect. Mutual respect will lead to the best outcomes but those outcomes won't occur instantly. Instead they will take time. I firmly believe that equality without respect is never equal.

But you're telling homosexual people that your comfort is more important than them having the same right to public displays of affection that you enjoy. Isn't that incredibly unfair?

 

[Mishihari Lord]

A lifestyle is a choice. Nobody chooses their sexuality, their skin colour, etc. To quote a popular singer, people are “born this way”.

People are not slaves to their desires, I personally know people who are attracted to others of the same sex but choose to live an asexual or heterosexual life because according to their religious beliefs, homosexual behavior is morally wrong. Lifestyle is a perfectly good word for behavior. One of the reasons liberals and conservative (US definitions) tend to talk past each other on this issue is that conservatives think in terms of behavior while liberals think in terms of desire.

 

[MechaPilot]

Homo's as you mentioned are okay with hetero displays. Many hetero's are not okay with homo displays. Hetero's are respecting the homo comfort zone. Homo's are not respecting the hetero comfort zone. How is that not equal respect?

Respect isn't about both groups getting to do the same actions as each other. It's about refraining doing something another person or group finds uncomfortable. Equal respect doesn't equate to equal actions.

Respect is as much, if not more, about respecting the basic humanity of others as it is about respecting their comfort levels. People love. People in love give affection to each other, even in public. As long as it's tasteful, it shouldn't matter what sexuality the loving couple is.

Also, using the comfort level of others to justify inequality is wrong. I'm sure there were many civil war and reconstruction era southerners for whom the freedom of black slaves was uncomfortable, that doesn't mean they should have stayed slaves to preserve that comfort. I'm sure there are career driven DAs for whom exhonorating evidence being presented in a case that could make their career is uncomfortable, that doesn't mean an innocent person should go to jail to preserve the DA's comfort.

 

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=30788]Teemu[/MENTION]

I wanted to add I think the large majority of people in western society are opposed at this time to open Homo displays of affection. I could be wrong though.