D&D 5E (2014) [5E] Collaborative Combat - ADVICE NEEDED

[Krachek]

You can describe how your character thrown is helmet to the ground, stepping and crying on how world is unfair!
Sometime it is more funny to yell and complain on other character than effectively attack,
Use the situation to role play your sorrow.

 

[Satyrn]

Oh gods, the problem is that I'm playing a very chill middle-aged hippie woman who isn't nearly as bothered by the lack of tactics as I am; it's frustrating for me because I want her to come across as capable, but when she can't ever land a hit on anyone, that kind of makes it difficult for me to play my character the way I want to. D'oh.

I see a roleplay hook!

For those times like you describe where the other players swoop in and drop your target, leaving no one for you to face, play up your character's chill. Have her congratulate the ally, say something like "That saves me the fuss" and take a calm relaxed swig of water as you stroll on to your next target.

Let her be relaxed about not being the one to drop the foes - it doesn't have to bother her because she knows she's skilled. She doesn't have to prove it.

 

[Bradley Hindman]

I don't understand why you'd need to wait till then. Just loot whatever handaxes, daggers, or spears you can from the cold dead hands of your enemies.

Or take them from the fighter who keeps bogarting your targets !

In 3rd edition I had a similar problem. I was playing a barbarian with great cleave. I can't remember if we were using a houserule feat, but I had the ability to cleave then move, cleave then move, cleave then move, ad infinitum, as long as the target went down. The damn druid kept sending his hoard of summoned animals to pick off of the enemies with low hit points. After mentioning several times that his animal hoard kept breaking the links in my cleave chain, the next time it happened I just cleaved through the pack of summoned critters to get to the foe. Only needed to do that once.

 

[Bradley Hindman]

With regards to my struggling with combat, it's not so much the lack of tactics I find frustrating as the lack of consideration. If it were in-character for the fighter in the first example to pommel the enemy closest to me (maybe because I was threatened, or because I was nearing death), I could easily swallow it; I love roleplay, and there's few things I love more than discovering other players are so into their characters that they actually allow their character to influence their tactics (or lack thereof) in combat, when most people are concerned with downing the enemy as quickly as possible. But it really wasn't, and it felt more like 'I want to get the most kills' and less like 'This is what my character would do'.

Keep in mind that there may be nothing malicious here. Some players have a hard enough time figuring out what they are going to do next, much less consider what other players plan on doing or are capable of doing. Next time, roleplay who your next target is going to be. "Yo, lickspittle. You're next." This should help give the other players an idea of your plans without breaking the 4th wall.

 

[happyhermit]

It actually sounds like RP might be causing some of the "issues". Most of the characters I play would be more likely to finish off an enemy in melee with a "very chill middle-aged hippie woman who isn't nearly as bothered by the lack of tactics" than most other PCs even just a change to a "very chill middle-aged hippie woman who makes it obvious that she is taking care of business and doesn't want any help".

Basically, how much do you RP in combat? Do you make things clear to the other players (in character) when you are in over your head or don't want them to focus fire and help you?

Ask the GM why they are placing opponents as far apart as they are, it might just be that they don't really think about it. Consider how your PC would handle the choice, but get yourself some ranged options even if it involves "wasting" spells.

 

[Trudy]

I don't understand why you'd need to wait till then. Just loot whatever handaxes, daggers, or spears you can from the cold dead hands of your enemies.

Aren't I going to be at some sort of disadvantage until I have some sort of skill? I admittedly am super ignorant in the way of the thrown weapon. I don't think I've ever thrown a weapon. Not even in my Ye Olde 3.5 days.

Is it okay for players to discuss tactics and intentions during combat? If so, couldn't you just point out when another player's decision is less than optimal? Doesn't mean you can or should try to control their decisions, but they may agree with your observations, especially if the intent behind your own decisions isn't crystal clear.

If tactical conversations are not permitted, you could make a case to the DM/group about why they should be. Failing that, at the end of the day you're only really in control of your own actions anyway, so you might try adjusting your own tactics. Like Bradley said, a thrown weapon or two could eliminate the need to double move when your current melee target dies faster than anticipated.

You cited two cases, are there more? Does this happen every session? Every other session? How rare an occurrence must this be until it's no longer problematic for you? Is it affecting other players tactical effectiveness? Is it affecting their enjoyment of the game?

Could there be more at work here than you're aware? Do the other characters want to steal your character's thunder? Do the other players?

I'm not expecting answers to any of these questions, they're just food for thought as you figure your way through this situation.

I usually make it clear to the other players, particularly when I'm moving towards a target, what I'm doing, or planning to do. It might seem metagame-y, but after a few combats together, the characters are likely to notice certain things about the way the other characters fight or behave in combat, even if the players don't. For the first example, I said something to the effect of, "[Character name] is going to barrel towards this enemy, and prepare to attack next turn." This week, it was "[Character name] is going to move towards [other character] so she can heal them." We don't get super technical (and maybe we need to), but I at least try to make sure that the other players at least have some idea of what my intentions are so they can plan accordingly.

Thanks for the advice here; I might try and push for more tactical talk just so we can be a little more effective in combat.

With regards to the cases I cited, this is actually only a recent problem for me. We had some characters that were having a hard time meshing in the game, in part because we didn't have any knowledge of the campaign in advance and build characters that would be driven to stick around for the campaign (admittedly, it's SKT, which doesn't exactly do the best job of giving the characters an immediate, concrete objective to cling onto). Several of us elected to re-roll (including myself) and we went from having one melee combatant to having two. That's when the problems started becoming obvious to me. When I played a warlock, it was easy for me to adjust targets because I could Eldritch Blast from a considerable distance. In melee, it's a lot harder to adjust -- and that's part of why I'm wondering if there might be something that I can be doing better.

You're right -- I don't have any answers for those questions, but I certainly wish I did. I'll keep thinking on it. Thanks for the help!

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks so much for the advice! The DM is on the strugglebus at the moment, and I think she's aware of that; part of it is her not completely knowing the full range of abilities combat creatures have before combat begins. She's migrating to DMing biweekly (with another DM running a different game every other week), so I'm hopeful she'll improve in this regard once she has more time to prep. Having two new players definitely doesn't help, though by now, they should grasp the extent of their character's abilities by this point, too. (One does, but the other definitely doesn't!)

Taking down notes for when I run my own campaign next year, too.

With regards to my struggling with combat, it's not so much the lack of tactics I find frustrating as the lack of consideration. If it were in-character for the fighter in the first example to pommel the enemy closest to me (maybe because I was threatened, or because I was nearing death), I could easily swallow it; I love roleplay, and there's few things I love more than discovering other players are so into their characters that they actually allow their character to influence their tactics (or lack thereof) in combat, when most people are concerned with downing the enemy as quickly as possible. But it really wasn't, and it felt more like 'I want to get the most kills' and less like 'This is what my character would do'.

Ah, so it sounds like you have several fellow players who are hack-n-slash types? And, if my hunch is right, they are coming from a background of video gaming where "kill stealing" is apparently a "thing"? I would investigate further: is it just habit from bloodthirsty video gaming? do they believe that the only way to gain experience points is killing monsters? If they're under that misconception, it would be good to get really clear about how XP/levels are earned in the DM's game.

If I was DMing a combat for a group with that kind of player composition, I would more carefully craft a really deadly combat (and by "deadly" I mean throw out any encounter creation guidelines in the DMG and just make it overwhelming) that strongly encourages outside-the-box thinking. For example, I'd have many many waves of lower-hit point enemies that would just keep coming. There would be a clearly defined objective or two to the combat besides "slay all monsters." In fact, "slay all monsters" would be the WORST strategy and would likely lead to a couple PC deaths at least. The objective instead would be something related to the story, for example, extracting a diplomat with key intelligence from a besieged castle (who is technically an ally but their own motives create complications) OR capturing an enemy alive (see the last episode of Game of Thrones). And then I'd include lots of terrain that can be exploited by clever play – portcullises that can be dropped to stem flow of enemies, secret passages to avoid an ambush or launch a counter ambush, crenellated courtyards which serve as sniping perch for archers, etc. And I'd be very liberal with player actions shoving/pushing enemies off the edge of things.

What this does is gives the slayer-types the opportunity to indulge in wanton dramatic combat, but by keeping the threat constantly increasing strongly encourages better strategizing, and eventually leads to prioritizing the mission over "kill count" or whatever (which IME is what draws out creative outside-the-box thinking). And it also gives actor types (like you, I'm guessing) opportunities to interact with lots of NPCs.

 

[Satyrn]

Aren't I going to be at some sort of disadvantage until I have some sort of skill? I admittedly am super ignorant in the way of the thrown weapon. I don't think I've ever thrown a weapon. Not even in my Ye Olde 3.5 days.

Only slightly. The thrown weapon won't likely do quite as much damage - but there's nothing beyond that unless you've buffed up your melee power with feats. Regardless, it's stronger than a double move and that's all we suggested doing this for - getting in an attack as you approach the target instead of just closing the distance.

But the attack roll is Strength+Proficiency and damage is weapon +strength. Your paladin's already set for that.

(Unless you're a finesse fighter, in which case you'll want to throw daggers to use dex instead of str.)

 

[Satyrn]

Wait. I don't know what class your character. I don't know why I think it's a paladin. But regardless, the thrown weapons mostly Simple so even if you're playing a warlock, you'll be proficient.

 

[Trudy]

I see a roleplay hook!

For those times like you describe where the other players swoop in and drop your target, leaving no one for you to face, play up your character's chill. Have her congratulate the ally, say something like "That saves me the fuss" and take a calm relaxed swig of water as you stroll on to your next target.

Let her be relaxed about not being the one to drop the foes - it doesn't have to bother her because she knows she's skilled. She doesn't have to prove it.

I absolutely love this. Thank you!

Or take them from the fighter who keeps bogarting your targets !

In 3rd edition I had a similar problem. I was playing a barbarian with great cleave. I can't remember if we were using a houserule feat, but I had the ability to cleave then move, cleave then move, cleave then move, ad infinitum, as long as the target went down. The damn druid kept sending his hoard of summoned animals to pick off of the enemies with low hit points. After mentioning several times that his animal hoard kept breaking the links in my cleave chain, the next time it happened I just cleaved through the pack of summoned critters to get to the foe. Only needed to do that once.

Ahahaha, wow! That's one way to make a point.

Keep in mind that there may be nothing malicious here. Some players have a hard enough time figuring out what they are going to do next, much less consider what other players plan on doing or are capable of doing. Next time, roleplay who your next target is going to be. "Yo, lickspittle. You're next." This should help give the other players an idea of your plans without breaking the 4th wall.

This is true -- and is definitely, obviously a problem for at least one of our players. I'm going to try and do better at giving some people grace.

It actually sounds like RP might be causing some of the "issues". Most of the characters I play would be more likely to finish off an enemy in melee with a "very chill middle-aged hippie woman who isn't nearly as bothered by the lack of tactics" than most other PCs even just a change to a "very chill middle-aged hippie woman who makes it obvious that she is taking care of business and doesn't want any help".


Basically, how much do you RP in combat? Do you make things clear to the other players (in character) when you are in over your head or don't want them to focus fire and help you?


Ask the GM why they are placing opponents as far apart as they are, it might just be that they don't really think about it. Consider how your PC would handle the choice, but get yourself some ranged options even if it involves "wasting" spells.

I'm going to kind of get a little tl;dr here again for the sake of answering your questions about both RP and DM enemy placement.

Our DM for this particular game was new to DMing. She chose SKT because it was the only campaign built into Roll20 at the time, and didn't consider what she might enjoy running, or what might be easier for her to run as a newbie DM. When we created characters, we didn't create characters who would necessarily be the best fit for the campaign (none of us knew what the campaign was even about), and we didn't have any hooks that gave us compelling reasons to be drawn into the giant drama. As a result, the party didn't exactly have the best chemistry, and most were lukewarm to the whole giant business at best. Compared to the Thursday game, which is so RP-heavy that several of us actually do one-on-one roleplay sessions in between sessions so it's not taking up the brunt of our regular all-party game sessions, Saturday is RP-lite.

Half the party ended up rolling up new characters, and while there's definitely more chemistry than there was before (and a shared goal -- something that we really didn't have with the original party), but there's not a ton of RP happening outside of combat, and there's not much happening in-combat. The extent of my RP in-combat in the game right now is figuring out how my character would react to certain situations -- and most of the time, that involves following the lead of others, which is (usually) pretty easy, given that I'm a paladin so I'm usually closer to the bottom of the initiative order than I am the top.

Because the DM is new, she usually follows what's written in the module to the letter. I'm just doing research for my first campaign now (I'm reading through Strahd first, then PotA, and then I'll worry about making choices), and I've become acutely aware from just a cursory readthrough that sometimes, things in this book don't make sense, or are going to be extremely difficult / challenging, depending on the party makeup. Even as I read through Strahd, I'm already making a mental note of things that I'll likely have to tweak.

I think it's the lack of confidence/experience that makes it difficult for her to feel comfortable going off the page. There were elements to this particular combat that could have been adjusted to make it not feel so much like a long-lasting, miserable deathmatch with enemies all over the board, but I get the feeling she didn't feel comfortable making them because she thinks the book knows better than she does. (This is just my observation/speculation, though -- I might be totally off-the-mark.)

After taking in all the advice here, I'm definitely going to invest in something ranged. I might not be able to do a lot of damage with it, but at least it'll help to mitigate my frustration at feeling like there's little for me to do in combat... particularly when combat seems to be so much of our game, lately.