D&D 5E How viable is 5E to play at high levels?

[Sacrosanct]

Now that I've looked at the DMG, I will point out this. It's so important, it's right up front in the introduction of the game:

"A Dungeon Master gets to wear many hats....As an actor, the DM plays the roles of the monsters and supporting characters, breathing life into them. And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them....The D&D rules help you and other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge."

That right there tells you in clear terms that the game is not meant to just pit one monster stat block against the PCs, but are living beings that interact with each other as living beings normally would. That means genius opponents act like genius opponents and use their in-game knowledge and environment like a genius would. It's incredibly explicit that if RAW doesn't fit your needs as a group, you change and tweak them so they can.

The introduction is literally the job description of the DM. And like any other job description, if you refuse to do a large chunk of it because you just don't feel like it, then that's lazy (when I made that argument earlier). At the very least, if you choose to ignore these aspects of the DM's job and just want to run a combat sim (which is perfectly OK if that's what your group wants), then you need to understand that you are deviating from how the game is designed, and therefore you need to make tweaks accordingly and not blame the designers as at fault.

What I mean by that, in the context of this discussion, is that a group of orcs that just engage in combat like pieces on a game board is going to be much less challenging that a group of orcs that use tactics or the environment to their advantage (setting up traps, or funneling the PCs into desired areas, etc). The game assumes, per the job description of the DM, that you as the DM will be doing these things. If you don't, then no wonder why monsters seem less challenging.

 

[CapnZapp]

That is impossible because there is no way the writers of that stat block can predict every environment or scenario in which that monster may be encountered where a high intelligence can be a huge factor, let alone translate that into an ability in a statblock (how it plans for a battle, how it uses the environment, how it reacts to how combat is going, etc). And how do you suggest they put that in the statblock? Give me some examples of what a statblock would look like for the (in)famous marilith example that reflects her genius intelligence and all of the impacts during combat that may entail?

The obvious solution is to NOT assume any geniuses, and simply base the CR on what's in the stat block (minus the Intelligence score, natch)

Then I'm sure you are able to conjure up an unbeatable Marilith given adequate prep time, Sacrosanct. But that is beside the issue, IMNSHO

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[Sacrosanct]

The obvious solution is to NOT assume any geniuses, and simply base the CR on what's in the stat block (minus the Intelligence score, natch)

Then I'm sure you are able to conjure up an unbeatable Marilith given adequate prep time, Sacrosanct. But that is beside the issue, IMNSHO

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You just said high stat scores (like INT) need to be in the stat block. Now you're saying they shouldn't be. Which is it?

I guess that begs the question, do you even think the INT of an opponent should matter at all?


For me, the CR means what it says, "Challenge rating". And a creature that is very smart if played by the DM as very smart absolutely will impact how much of a challenge it is, therefore, the CR of a monster should be based on everything in that monster's description.

 

[JeffB]

That is impossible because there is no way the writers of that stat block can predict every environment or scenario in which that monster may be encountered where a high intelligence can be a huge factor, let alone translate that into an ability in a statblock (how it plans for a battle, how it uses the environment, how it reacts to how combat is going, etc). And how do you suggest they put that in the statblock? Give me some examples of what a statblock would look like for the (in)famous marilith example that reflects her genius intelligence and all of the impacts during combat that may entail?

Why are you asking someone else about my marilith encounter?

And you seem awful wound up over challenge ratings for no good reason.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then I'm sure you are able to conjure up an unbeatable Marilith given adequate prep time, Sacrosanct.

See! D&D really does teach you how to summon demons!

;P

 

[hawkeyefan]

I suggest you treat it as an isolated data point then. Here's another, fresh from my last session:

They found a valuable bracelet lying in a cave, recently opened up to the world by a rockfall. The cave itself radiated cold and the Druid noticed how devoid of life it was, even grubs and insects. Despite this, the party decided to spend the night, the Wizard wearing the bracelet in the hopes it would reveal itself to be magical.

Then they got ambushed by a Banshee and her four "maids" (Will'o'the'wisps).

They only got away alive because when the wildshaped Druid lost all his hit points, he "fell out" of his form but was otherwise unharmed, and could pick up a friend and flee.

That, and that every undead focus-fired on the Wizard who had "stolen" her bracelet. He quickly died. First he failed the Banshee's Con save, then he failed the Wisp's. Bam - instant death.


(four 4th level characters)

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So what you're saying here is that the timing and environment and tactics can make a big difference?

Weird.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Why are you asking someone else about my marilith encounter?

because that's the one people seem to keep bringing up. Use any high INT monster if you want. My question to him remains the same. How would he put that in a statblock to represent the high INT?

And you seem awful wound up over challenge ratings for no good reason.

No I'm not. I'm not the one saying they are broken. I am curious to know how CapnZapp can hold opposite positions, however, especially within a short period of saying each one. He said high stats should be reflecting in the stat block, then immediately said they shouldn't be. So I am honestly curious as to how he would like for that to be reflective

 

[JeffB]

because that's the one people seem to keep bringing up. Use any high INT monster if you want. My question to him remains the same. How would he put that in a statblock to represent the high INT?

Well, IME, the INT doesn't make alot of difference here simply because she just is not nearly as powerful as she is in previous editions. I ran her with some beefed up Vrock Minions, and the combat took place on what remained of 2 ruined bridges over a ravine...essentially just the bridge pillars and small chunks of bridge. The Vrocks got taken out by end of second round. she teleported a fair amount , but was only able to hold a grapple once (and Teleported with the Cleric grappled 120ft away, who then broke free and beat the crap out of her, lol). She only seemed to hit with 3 of her melee attacks on average, and she took a pounding via missle fire from the thief, and especially got beat by the Champion fighter who was getting 3 hits per round on her almost every turn of his. Her reaction parry rarely worked against the champion, and her defenses help against spells but it was a "harm" spell that essentially took her out.

I think the real issue is compared to prior versions- she doesn't have damage resistance except against energy, she doesn't have any offensive or defensive spells (like Darkness or Silence), she has no "aura" attack, her AC is not that high when talking 15th level characters, and she doesn't have any summoned creatures BTB unless you use the option (though technically she had "summoned" creatures because of me). She's a pushover compared to previous editions. She's essentially written up as a general and tactician, who relishes combat (a big bag of HPs with a couple nasty surprises). In our case, she just couldn't dish it out enough in combat even with some support and the ability to Teleport with or without a grappled foe. The characters made their checks and saves easily, and because alot of her defense relies on Advantage/Disadvantage vs. spells and resistance to basic energy types, she got pummeled in the knock down drag out.

The Mummy Lord was more interesting because of his Legendary and Lair actions, and the players took some hits and effects, but they still laid the smackdown on them (ML and his minions).

I don't think that's very good design work on WOTCs part. It's almost as if they figured she would just get fireballed and lightning bolted and that's it. Now whether its bad monster design, or broken CR system ? :shrug: To me it seems their CR is rated way too high.

That said, the Kids had a blast being real badasses, and end of day, that is all that matters to me.

 

[Sacrosanct]

See, and IMO, I think her intelligence would matter quite a bit, because it opens the door to much greater tactical thinking. For example (and this is just a brief easy example off the top of my head), since we know she's usually around other demons, she would instruct them on tactics they normally aren't smart enough to think of on their own. Like telling two barlgura's to keep invisible until the party is within sight. Then have them leap and grapple the fighter types (maybe tossing them into lava pits, or even sacrificing themselves to bring the PC over the ravine along with them, etc) as the dretch pour out of hiding to act as minions that would have lots of attacks of opportunity if the PCs tried to move around and engage the marilith. Meanwhile, the marilith uses teleport to go right to the casters, making mincemeat of them with her grapple and 7 attacks. Her parry reaction (which can be used every turn) would give her an AC of 23, which is still pretty good even against level 16 PC attackers (that would have an average of +10 to hit assuming prof bonus and max attribute bonus). She would keep teleporting out of range of the PC melee types, who have the choice to keep chasing her at the cost of all those dretch AoO (assuming they've managed to break free of the grapping), or spend several rounds at the very least taking care of the minions, all the while she's in melee range grappling the squishy casters. A marilith has the potential to take out a wizard in one round. Even with rough averages, it would only take 2 rounds.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Well, IME, the INT doesn't make alot of difference here simply because she just is not nearly as powerful as she is in previous editions. I ran her with some beefed up Vrock Minions, and the combat took place on what remained of 2 ruined bridges over a ravine...essentially just the bridge pillars and small chunks of bridge. The Vrocks got taken out by end of second round. she teleported a fair amount , but was only able to hold a grapple once (and Teleported with the Cleric grappled 120ft away, who then broke free and beat the crap out of her, lol). She only seemed to hit with 3 of her melee attacks on average, and she took a pounding via missle fire from the thief, and especially got beat by the Champion fighter who was getting 3 hits per round on her almost every turn of his. Her reaction parry rarely worked against the champion, and her defenses help against spells but it was a "harm" spell that essentially took her out.

I think the real issue is compared to prior versions- she doesn't have damage resistance except against energy, she doesn't have any offensive or defensive spells (like Darkness or Silence), she has no "aura" attack, her AC is not that high when talking 15th level characters, and she doesn't have any summoned creatures BTB unless you use the option (though technically she had "summoned" creatures because of me). She's a pushover compared to previous editions. She's essentially written up as a general and tactician, who relishes combat (a big bag of HPs with a couple nasty surprises). In our case, she just couldn't dish it out enough in combat even with some support and the ability to Teleport with or without a grappled foe. The characters made their checks and saves easily, and because alot of her defense relies on Advantage/Disadvantage vs. spells and resistance to basic energy types, she got pummeled in the knock down drag out.

The Mummy Lord was more interesting because of his Legendary and Lair actions, and the players took some hits and effects, but they still laid the smackdown on them (ML and his minions).

I don't think that's very good design work on WOTCs part. It's almost as if they figured she would just get fireballed and lightning bolted and that's it. Now whether its bad monster design, or broken CR system ? :shrug: To me it seems their CR is rated way too high.

That said, the Kids had a blast being real badasses, and end of day, that is all that matters to me.

It's good that everyone had fun....like you say, that's the point.

I think the Marilith is fairly strong, but can indeed use a boost. I treat the one in the book as kind of the "standard" Marilith, and then any important Marilith that I want my PCs to come across...one of those I want to be consider a general or some such.....I add some spells or other abilities to help beef her up.

I think having Teleport be a move action instead of an Action is a good first step to take.

The reactive parry is pretty great, I'm surprised you said that it didn't help against a Fighter. It's usable on every PC's turn. And of course, teleporting away but not into cover seems an odd choice, especially given that the Marilith as presented has no ranged attack. Or you could easily allow the Marilith to use her parry against ranged attacks, too.

I think that when it comes to design....sure, we can say that the design is flawed. It's a label that we can apply, but then what does that help? Removing the flaw is fairly easy. Your assessment with the Mummu Lord is astute, too, because anything that has Legendary Abilities is going to hold up better against a party.

I think it's the difference between having your PCs fight "a Marilith" and having them fight "General Selucia". A monster like that is supposed to be unique, so to me, the stats are a starting point. Add some stuff, surprise your players, and you're good.