D&D 5E (2014) Pre-Order DLC comes to D&D with D&D Beyond and Xanathar's Guide to Everything pre-order

[ddaley]

Keep in mind that people are purchasing a book for $30... they are not jumping off a bridge based on blind faith. Relax...

 

[Ovinomancer]

[snipped material not in response to my comments]

The NBA 2k18 is directly related to my argument because it shows how an innocuous addition to an industry can balloon into a hugely corrupting and abusive influence. Microtransactions were initially confined to low-quality free games or bargain bin MMOs, but now they're in mainstream AAA titles. That's one of the cruxes of my argument, that by giving in to that temptation people will reinforce publishers opinions that this is now up for grabs in the tabletop hobby.

No, it doesn't relate, unless you're holding the assumptions that bad behavior is funigle in kind and application and that developers are all uniquely susceptible to being seduced into bad behavior, that the microtransactions are, in fact bad behavior (I don't like it either, but if people pay for it, it's clearly something they're willing to pay for), and, finally, that all of this applies to the RPG digital delivery market.

Somewhere in there it's just a bridge to far. And, as I said, it just opens the door to any behavior you don't like is now usable as an example of how other behavior you don't like is bad. A doesn't follow from B.

We seem to have been talking past each other on this point because this proves nothing. My point was in regards to network/server capacity. A great many people pre-ordered Diablo 3 and their infrastructure collapsed on launch day, same as other notorious examples like the late Sim City. I have not seen any conclusive proof that companies have allocated game servers as a result of pre-order data.

As an aside, it's probably the 'lucky' option, or rather the 'cautious' one. As you've probably gathered I'm pretty averse to buying without substantial knowledge beforehand, the acquisition of such information usually shielding me from early issues like download hangups.

Again, one bad result doesn't disprove the idea. Blizzard was surprised by the release day purchases because the pre-sale data wasn't high comparatively. They misplanned, yes, but many other companies have rolled out very well done big purchases, and part of that is experience and pre-sale data. Your confirmation bias is showing.

The fact that your son chose to take on double risk (unknown game and unknown DLC quality) is largely immaterial to the argument/opinion. I can just as easily add my own anecdote of my brother, who pre-puchased The Division and its season pass and both the base game and the season of DLC were incredibly underwhelming. Also kind of proves my point about the psychological trickery at play here; you admit the things he got are not of major significance, yet he is pleased with his decision to pre-order, thus increasing the chances he has to do so again in the future. This is how we get No Man's Sky, people lulled in false complacency as consumers.

Neither were unknown. Bungie has an excellent track record of delivering games my son loves, starting with the Halo system. Destiny 1 was consistently made better by every DLC, and there's zero reason to believe that they'd suddenly change that behavior on the game concept they've built a decade of their company income on. The backend of the Destiny game is hugely robust, showing a huge investment in storytelling and time. In short, it's just about a sure-thing bet to make.

You continuously try to treat product and entirely unknown prior to release. This is very much not true. Past history with a franchise or product line is a huge indicator of successive quality (Civ games aside, and they usually end up there after the first content drop/fix). This is true across a number of markets, not just games.

As for being pleased, he's most please by being able to play Destiny on launch day with his friends without waiting and without worrying about having the cash on hand and getting to the store and them having a copy available. That last alone meant he'd have to wait until the store opens or stand in a midnight release line, whereas his preorder had him playing at 6 am (I wouldn't let him get up earlier) the day it released. The extras offered for preorder were nice, but totally not at all the reason he preordered. He'd have preordered without them. And I know I said that, so your trying to assert what my son valued in direct contravention of what I clearly stated is really doubling down on the crazy. I barely know what the teenager is thinking, how could you possibly guess his frame of mind?

And, yes, he'll be tempted to preorder a game again, if he's really stoked about it, has prior experience with the franchise, and has a large enough peer group that wants to play. The incentives offered won't even occur to him until after he's actually decided to pre-order it. He didn't even know what the pre-order bennies for Destiny 2 were when he asked if I could help him set up his pre-order.

Because you're sane, yes, but there are definitely people who will buy the product in question multiple times simply to get all the content. Probably not a large percentage, but then again, freemium apps are likewise successful off a small portion of their userbase. As such, there are indeed people who will likely buy this product or others simply because of the bonuses.

And, somehow, the decisions these people make for their own, that they seem to enjoy the fruits of, are really because companies are using bad psychological tricks to get them to act in ways they don't actually want to and don't enjoy?

Pull the other one, it has bells on.

The thing you and kenmarble should think about is many of your respective counterpoints rest on the assumption that you were going to buy it anyway. For those who are more on the fence, the inclusion of bonuses might override their unease against their best interests.

The problem here is that you're assuming your opinion is actually their best interest. It's not. You shouldn't confuse the two.

For what it's worth, I've enjoyed this conversation but will probably be my last post in the thread, as we've both reasonably articulated our points and I don't think we're going to change each other's minds on this topic. I still hold that the practice itself (pre-orders) is fundamentally anti-consumer, since it is based on keeping the customer uninformed, and I guess I'll simply have to keep an eye on how Xanathar's does on launch day to see how many people agree or disagree with me.

Honestly, I rarely argue on the internet in the hope I'll change the other person's point of view. Rather, it's for those on the fence to have two sides to weigh. Essentially, I'm arguing against your argument, not against you, and others can weigh the relative merits of each side however they want.

That said, it has been a spirited conversation. Thanks.

 

[kenmarable]

It makes you a 'bad' consumer in as much as you can be one, really. Your choice to take increased risk out of disinterest or blind faith is a choice that is yours alone to make, but let's not pretend it's the informed one.

If you've stepped away, that's fine. But I do feel like I should clarify here - you cannot be an informed consumer on every product you use. It is simply impossible. For example, at a quick/off the top of my head count, just typing this response on this message board involves at least 14 different businesses (and I'm sure I'm missing a whole lot in between). I filled up my gas tank on the way to my office which likely involved, at minimum, a half dozen businesses that I did not research.

Yes, I do choose to be an informed consumer when it matters. It is not disinterest. It is simply a fact of reality. For the majority of my interactions with businesses, it is a waste of time and effort to try to be a fully informed consumer. To be a reasonable and informed consumer, you need to pick and choose when it matters. When I spend hundreds of dollars (or more) on a new computer, you bet I research them. When I want a bagel for breakfast - nope, not a lot of research.

However, speaking of a $30 book... I have quite a few other WotC books, and even more UA material, and material written by these designers before they were at WotC, etc. etc. - so I already am well informed towards the likely quality. Sure, I could wait for reviews, but how do we become informed about the quality of those reviews? Not all reviews are equally valuable. This "informed consumer" as an ideal is an impossibility. Sometimes it is worth it, and other times it is not. Being rewarded by a company for being a loyal customer and/or pre-ordering a product you are relatively confident will be of value to you is very reasonable as both a business and as a consumer. Nothing shady.

If someone wants to wait until after the book is out to make a decision, that's fine. If some of us trust their previous work and what has been indicated is in the book to risk $30, it is still a very rational, reasonable, and informed decision to make.

(Sorry, I used to teach Business Ethics, so I can - and have - ramble about this for hours.)

 

[Mistwell]

Nothing ridiculous about it, it's indefensibly anti-consumer

You have mistaken your opinion and feelings for fact and majority opinion.

You have a problem with it, and you find it indefensible and anti-consumer. Others do not have a problem with it and find it either neutral or pro-consumer. Nobody is "wrong" as it's one of those issues where reasonable minds differ. The only "wrong" opinion is the one which says all opinions which disagree with theirs are wrong

 

[Mistwell]

By the way coincidentally (or perhaps not so coincidentally) Owen KC Stephens has a very good blog post up today titled "Why Kickstarter" which talks about the reasons Kickstarter is good for the industry. Here is the link to his post.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Yeah, but where specifically does the pre-order have to be at to get the DLC? My pre-order is with Amazon, I'd support my local stores except their stock is laughable and I'm a gamer with other interests, so saving some coin is good.

 

[ddaley]

Yeah, but where specifically does the pre-order have to be at to get the DLC? My pre-order is with Amazon, I'd support my local stores except their stock is laughable and I'm a gamer with other interests, so saving some coin is good.

Considering that the feats are developed by Curse and not WoTC, you will have to pre-order through D&D Beyond. Why would Curse provide a pre-order bonus for Amazon customers?

 

[Leatherhead]

Keep in mind that people are purchasing a book for $30... they are not jumping off a bridge based on blind faith. Relax...

I want to clear up one thing really quick:

This isn't a book.
This isn't a PDF.
This is a rules expansion for a digital application.

Yes, it's largely the same information. But the way you accesses said information, it's availability, and even its potential for being distributed are different.

 

[ddaley]

I want to clear up one thing really quick:

This isn't a book.
This isn't a PDF.
This is a rules expansion for a digital application.

Yes, it's largely the same information. But the way you accesses said information, it's availability, and even its potential for being distributed are different.

I generally put book in quotes... as "book"... but, my point is that people are upset that others are willing to pre-order without being able to research the item in question prior to purchase, and hence are being reckless and horrible consumers. I think people need to keep things in perspective here... this is a $30 "book" and not a life decision. If $30 is a lot of money to you, then, by all means, research it before you purchase. For me, I'll take my chances that I will get $30 worth of use out of it.

 

[lostsanityreturned]

If you're so stuck up on reading a simple web page before deciding, then I guess I recommend you to not get the feats.

You talk about piracy as if it were illegal to read any of the numerous blogs that will review and analyze these feats in such detail you will easily be able to use them in your home game.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

It is a preorder bonus, you cannot preorder once it is released and people have reviews out, not that complex a concept mate.

Also piss off with the insults.