D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Horwath]

I like the point buy as best and really only fair solution.

it's simple and you can easy play with power curve. Just add or reduce few points from the pool for various campaign types.

Standard array while equaly fair is boring as it makes more or less whole party same.

Rolling, I hate with passion. Unless it is bordered with high or low score limits(which is another point buy method(worse) in effect).

Also it leads to too much power spread between characters. From "ubermench" to more or less candidates for disability aid.

 

[Maxperson]

I like the point buy as best and really only fair solution.

it's simple and you can easy play with power curve. Just add or reduce few points from the pool for various campaign types.

Standard array while equaly fair is boring as it makes more or less whole party same.

Rolling, I hate with passion. Unless it is bordered with high or low score limits(which is another point buy method(worse) in effect).

Also it leads to too much power spread between characters. From "ubermench" to more or less candidates for disability aid.

As has repeatedly been pointing out, rolling is a fair method of stat generation. The results do not have to be equal for a method to be fair. If 10 people are trying to get a position at a company that has only 1 opening, so long as the company gives them all an equal shot at the job, it doesn't matter that 9 of them remain unemployed at the end of the selection process. It was still fair.

 

[Horwath]

As has repeatedly been pointing out, rolling is a fair method of stat generation. The results do not have to be equal for a method to be fair. If 10 people are trying to get a position at a company that has only 1 opening, so long as the company gives them all an equal shot at the job, it doesn't matter that 9 of them remain unemployed at the end of the selection process. It was still fair.

Sorry, but IMHO you are 100% off target with this comparison.

10 applications are determined by skill and education of the people applying for the job and best will get picked.

There is no skill in rolling dice(unless you use "loaded" dice, then that is skill but also cheating), it's just dumb luck.

Point buy is somewhat skill, as you all have same resource pool for abilities and you combine them as you wish. And how it suits your character concept.

 

[Sadras]

Rolling, I hate with passion. Unless it is bordered with high or low score limits(which is another point buy method(worse) in effect).

Also it leads to too much power spread between characters. From "ubermench" to more or less candidates for disability aid.

I can understand your concern and certainly it isn't for everyone. It requires a table buy-in.

I do however feel that the rolling works best in your classic 1e, 2e and BECMI styled games which [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] runs or is involved in.
I might have a skewed perception, and I expect not everyone to agree with me on this, but the rolling system is ideal where the challenge/story/adventure is the group's foremost concern, while characters come secondary. That is not to say characters are not important or are easily disposable.

[raises his tower shield, expecting a rain of pretzels and empty beer cans]

 

[Yardiff]

I like the point buy as best and really only fair solution.

it's simple and you can easy play with power curve. Just add or reduce few points from the pool for various campaign types.

/snip/

Rolling, I hate with passion. Unless it is bordered with high or low score limits(which is another point buy method(worse) in effect).

Also it leads to too much power spread between characters. From "ubermench" to more or less candidates for disability aid.

You can "play with the power curve" with rolling just as with point buy. You get "ubermench" and "disability aid" in the same group with poor GMs.

In early editions the designers and set things up to mitigate things somewhat, if you didn't roll at least two 15s you rerolled.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry, but IMHO you are 100% off target with this comparison.

10 applications are determined by skill and education of the people applying for the job and best will get picked.

There is no skill in rolling dice(unless you use "loaded" dice, then that is skill but also cheating), it's just dumb luck.

Point buy is somewhat skill, as you all have same resource pool for abilities and you combine them as you wish. And how it suits your character concept.

Even if that analogy is off, the statement isn't. So long as the process is fair, the results can be unequal and it was still fair. Let's go with roulette for the analogy, then. Each person places a bet on 1 number and ONLY(no color betting, etc.) a number, covering all of the numbers. One person is guaranteed to win and everyone else will lose. The spin is absolutely fair, yet most of the players will be losers.

Or else you can just look up the freaking definition of fair. You are simply off base when declaring rolling unfair just because the results are unequal.

 

[Maxperson]

You can "play with the power curve" with rolling just as with point buy. You get "ubermench" and "disability aid" in the same group with poor GMs.

In early editions the designers and set things up to mitigate things somewhat, if you didn't roll at least two 15s you rerolled.

3e also set things up to mitigate things somewhat. You re-rolled if your bonuses totaled 0 or lower or if your highest stat was 13 or lower.

 

[Oofta]

It all started when you made the claim that point-buy let's you make the PC you want. I then pointed out that since the general population is assumed to be generated by the 3d6 bell curve, and that any NPC is hypothetically a valid PC, that any score from 3 to 18 is a valid score for a PC. Since point-buy doesn't allow that, then point-buy does not allow players to play any valid concept they want; 'valid' being 'any normal person' in this case.

Even though you acknowledge that the 3d6 bell curve was part of the D&D NPC background assumption at the start, and that the 5E PHB states that normal people have stats from 3 to 18, and the 5E MM has commoners with stats of 10 (all of which is consistent with the 3d6 bell curve), you deny that the 3d6 bell curve is part of 5E and chalk up 5E's '3 to 18 average 10' as a massive co-incidence but definitely nothing to do with the 3d6 bell curve.

Even if you deny the reality of the bell curve, you cannot deny the 3 to 18 part because that is written in 5E.

Since point-buy does not allow stats below 8 or above 15, then bell curve or not, point-buy does not allow players to play whatever valid concept they want.

The horse was dead a long time ago. My statement was that "I've always been able to [build the character I had envisioned] with point buy.". I've since clarified that multiple times. I can't build superman, I can't build someone with all 18s or all 3s, I have to build a legal D&D character, I have to use an array of numbers that point buy can give me.

As much as you want to make a mountain out of a molehill of a statement that was not fully qualified to your liking, what's the point? That I needed to qualify my statement? I did that in the first handful of pages. That you like generating a random array of points to use to build your character?

Or is it just:

1) I really want 3d6 bell curve to matter so therefore it does.
2) The 5E rulebook never mentions rolling 3d6 for commoners
3) go to step 1

 

[Oofta]

I like the point buy as best and really only fair solution.

it's simple and you can easy play with power curve. Just add or reduce few points from the pool for various campaign types.

Standard array while equaly fair is boring as it makes more or less whole party same.

Rolling, I hate with passion. Unless it is bordered with high or low score limits(which is another point buy method(worse) in effect).

Also it leads to too much power spread between characters. From "ubermench" to more or less candidates for disability aid.

I agree 100%, as do the people I play with. Of course, the group may be self-selecting.

I know a lot of people say rolling is fair, I disagree. It's a method that by definition gives you as the result of a one-time set of die rolls major advantages or disadvantages over other characters on a team. Random results are not fair, that's all that matters.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I have never noticed a problem at the table with rolled stats, but my players refuse to use such a system anyway so its academic. PC survival always hinges on the decision making of the player/group and the luck of the dice. Though when a new PC needs to be rolled and the player gets good stats the rest of the group is pumped since they should hopefully have an effective teammate to help them accomplish their goals. Though usually a lower stat PC ended up looting his stuff off his dead corpse. RIP high stat boy.