D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

You seem to be forgetting that AD&D does pretty much just that with its monster intelligence ratings. An ogre, for example, has a low intelligence, corresponding to a score-range of 5-7. The average ogre's intelligence can be extrapolated from there, if necessary. Most of the normal men in the MM are explicitly given a mean-value intelligence of average to very, corresponding to an average human range of 8-12.

AD&D did that, but I think I prefer 3e's method. Subtracting the 5 from 10 or 11 and rolling 3d6-5/6 allowed for the genius ogre with the 12 or 13 intelligence. That seems more realistic to me.

However, the fifth edition has actually gone further in the direction to which you're objecting. Instead of normal human commoners having an INT of 6-15 as they do in AD&D, in the current edition a humanoid commoner has an INT of 10 plus racial modifier. As a DM, I adjust that for profession. A merchant, for example, would have a minimum INT of 12 in one of my games.
Unless you roll for the commoners like the rules say you can.
 

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I get where you're coming from, I just disagree. The numbers we attach to our characters are an abstraction, just like AC or HP. It's a simplification of what my character is.

The numbers are not an abstraction. They are an approximation. An abstraction can be anything. Hit points can be luck, skill, meat, etc. They have nothing to bind them to a specific area or range like stats do. A 16 strength cannot be weak, flimsy, and so on. It has to be some variation of strong as a 16 is an approximation of strong.

My character isn't a half-orc champion fighter with a 16 strength, he's Bob the Butcher. While he's ok with an intimidating name and reputation, and uses it occasionally but he really gets his name from his humble beginnings. His father was a butcher and when orcs invaded in the year 619 he grabbed a cleaver and fearlessly took on the horde and became a folk hero. His big secret is that he was really just being chased by hornets and didn't know the orcs were there... and so on and so forth.
But he's still strong. The 16 in strength is not abstract. It ties your character to being strong.
 

Depends at what stage you're taking that snapshot.
At the point where you choose, of course, I thought that was fairly clear. The 65 arrays that can be built with 5e PH point-buy is 64 more arrays to choose from before arranging than standard array or random give you.

Before I roll any dice I've potentially got a huge boatload of stat lines
None of which you can /choose/. I suppose, to be fair, if we step it back a bit, Array gives you 1 choice, point-buy 65, and random 0.

Another way to look at it is the number of different arrays you actually have in the party as a whole, when you're done.
In standard Array, it's 1.
In Random it's up to the number of players, depending on how the dice fall.
In point-buy, it's up to the number of players, depending upon their individual choices.

When playing Monopoly (a typical board game) no-one expects you to create an alternate character to role-play, and wonder if the particular capitalist pig you are playing this time is the kind of guy who would bulldoze four houses and evict the poor tenants just to build a luxury hotel for the bourgeoisie!

You are not playing a character
No one expects it, but it doesn't mean you can't....
; you are you, trying to win a boardgame according to the rules of that game.
A not particularly good boardgame, but yeah. Getting your favorite token and attaching a personality might make it less boring... and you can still play to win while doing so. :shrug:

Part of the rules of that game are that each player starts with the same amount of money. No-one expects to have a random roll to see how much money they start with, because realism has absolutely nothing to do with the game.
The game evokes it's own myopic vision of a capitalist reality. Some of the places on the board are real places, for instance, some of the cards refer to laws, traditions, sayings &c of the day when it was created. It's not a realistic simulation anymore than LIFE is of modern life, or chess or go are of warfare, or D&D is of the middle ages, though. FWIW.

But if we were DMs trying to create a believable world in which to have adventures, then it would be totally unbelievable for each person to have the exact same amount of money. That every entrepreneur has to receive the exact same 'starting' cash from Daddy (as if everyone 'starts' at the same time!), and their natural talents are divinely mandated to be equal.
Not impossible to arrange. Maybe they're the top 4 graduates from Harvard Business that year, and have been given money and challenge by an eccentric millionaire (because a million was a lot of money back then)?

So we have a spectrum: at one end is the 'just a game, therefore everything must start equal' attitude of a mere boardgame. On the other end is the 'reality sim' attitude.
Fairness is critical in competitive games, the higher, arguably more nuanced bar of 'balance' is critical in cooperative games (sure, you can have a cooperative game where one player is the only one who's play actually matters, and everyone still 'wins' if he does - but everyone else might as well have gone in the next room and played Monopoly). 'Everything is identical' is a simple way to achieve fairness, but 'everything is random' is, too.
Neither, however, deliver balance.

Random generation (like your move is 2d6) would be fine for a competitive tactical board game, as would everyone playing identical 'playing piece' characters. For a cooperative board game, though, it'd be better if each player had a different 'playing piece' with different characteristics, but still equally important to winning the game - but it'd still be fine for those playing pieces to be chosen from a limited set or randomly distributed.
In an RPG, though, you have both a cooperative game to play, and a role to play, and not just choosing, but creating that role can be an important and rewarding part of that process....

For those of us who hold 'realism' as more important than 'only a game', then 'realism' is more important than 'fairness' in character generation. Therefore, rolling is more attractive than point-buy or standard array.
Though I sorta agree with the conclusion, I find your rationale less than satisfying. Fairness isn't really an issue in comparing the character generation methods - they're all fair, as long as you're all using the same method, achieving fairness is trivial, really. Realism of the two 'RAW' methods in the PH, OTOH, is minimal, the difference between choosing to arrange either a standard array or a random array (weighted towards results that average the same as the standard array), or arrange one of 65 point-built arrays (built on the same points as the standard array), is barely meaningful. Roll-in-order would be significantly more realistic, though, especially if combined with random determination of other factors beyond the character's influence - random methods, in general, can be a lot more realistic than point-build methods, but the specific one in the 5e PH, not so much. FWIW.

For those of us who hold 'only a game' as a higher priority than 'realism', then a fair/balanced PC generation system is more attractive than one with realistic variation. Therefore, rolling is less attractive.
Again, fair isn't an issue. Balance is, of course, because it's a cooperative game. But, for 'only a game' attitude, balance can/should be fairy tight and limited, only enough distinct roles to give one to each player are required, and what that role is will not be that important. There's not a lot of fine-tuning involved. Pre-gens, as in the days of Tournaments, or Standard Array would be ideal, then.

But, those two extremes aren't the only options. Players who want to engage, play, and enjoy the game, and /also/ want to engage, play & enjoy their role, need more than mere fairness, and more than a handful of cookie-cutter roles. They need more options in choosing/customizing their exact role in the cooperative game and it's imagined setting, that requires greater balance and more flexibility & choice than either random or array can provide... that's when point-buy makes more sense. It's also when the other player-facing sub-systems of the game are under the most stress/scrutiny, because if a player chooses a certain role and that role chronically under-contributes for mechanical reasons, he can be all but excluded from the game...

One reason that this thread is so long is that human nature leads us to treat the way we like things as the way things should be, and find it weird when we see people making the opposite choice. I see people who treat RPGs like a board game and my knee-jerk reaction is that they are having fun wrong. I don't get it. It seems to me like they are throwing away the best part of this extraordinary hobby just so that they can play a rather complex boardgame
Nod. And, you're clearly at the other end of the spectrum you see it. GNS sees a more complex pattern with 3 extremes rather than the two of a simple spectrum, with story as an emphasis in addition to the 'game' and 'realism' dimensions you see.

Doesn't change anything: whether you focus on one of two extremes or one of three extremes, and the incompatibilities of one with the other, you're denying the middle, the synthesis where things actually happen. An RPG is both playing a role and playing a game, you can do one or the other, but it's not really an RPG at that point - no one who shows up to discuss an RPG is likely to be that extreme, and painting others that way is usually little more than making a straw-man of them. (I'm sorry if I'm just repeating your point, BTW, I'm just going off on a similar tangent in my own words.)
You can can also emphasize one or the other while still doing both, and, in that emphasis, de-value the aspect you're paying less attention to until you think it doesn't matter. That probably happens, and it's problematic.
Thus, I think it's a good idea to cut the other side some slack in these debates and look at it from their side, too. If the advantages of one technique seem obvious, think harder about the disadvantages, you might gain some insights you've overlooked. If the down-sides of a technique seem overwhelming, go digging for it's strengths and try to understand them, you might reap a similar benefit.

Long, circular, and pointless as a thread like this can seem, there's a chance, however small, someone might benefit from it...

;)
 
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Before I roll any dice I've potentially got a huge boatload of stat lines - the difference being that rather than me making the choice the dice are going to choose one for me.

After I roll the dice then yes, I have only one; though one or two of the methods in the 1e PH might give me a few more to pick from.

This is just nitpicking, but the AD&D methods I-IV are in the DMG, not the PHB, which doesn't actually give a method for determining ability scores. Instead it says the DM will inform the player of which method to use. It's a good example of the tradition that ability score generation methods are an associative mechanic that reflect the characters' lack of control over their native abilities. Another example is that it was the DM, not the player, that rolled ability scores for the character in the original game.
 

An all-over-the-place reply to stuff here...

By that measure, by electing to roll, you have "picked" whatever numbers result.
Well, to be picky, you haven't. The dice have, via random chance.

Hriston said:
You seem to be forgetting that AD&D does pretty much just that with its monster intelligence ratings. An ogre, for example, has a low intelligence, corresponding to a score-range of 5-7. The average ogre's intelligence can be extrapolated from there, if necessary. Most of the normal men in the MM are explicitly given a mean-value intelligence of average to very, corresponding to an average human range of 8-12.
Fair point; I'd forogtten about the low-average-high ratings from 1e - even though I play and DM it, and give most species stat ranges rather than fixed numbers, I haven't used those actual terms for ages - to the point I'd forgotten they were even there. :)

However, the fifth edition has actually gone further in the direction to which you're objecting. Instead of normal human commoners having an INT of 6-15 as they do in AD&D, in the current edition a humanoid commoner has an INT of 10 plus racial modifier. As a DM, I adjust that for profession. A merchant, for example, would have a minimum INT of 12 in one of my games.
So no human commoner can have Int less than 10?

Hey, can we please have this idea ported over to the real world somehow? :)

More seriously: dumb rule. I guess the 5e designers wanted to give DMs places to practice their shiny new rulings-not-rules powers...

Oofta said:
My character isn't a half-orc champion fighter with a 16 strength, he's Bob the Butcher. While he's ok with an intimidating name and reputation, and uses it occasionally but he really gets his name from his humble beginnings. His father was a butcher and when orcs invaded in the year 619 he grabbed a cleaver and fearlessly took on the horde and became a folk hero. His big secret is that he was really just being chased by hornets and didn't know the orcs were there... and so on and so forth.

Just about the least important thing about Bob are his ability scores outside of a meta-game perspective.
And you know, I can get squarely behind what [MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION] says here. A character really should be more than just the sum of its numbers.

I guess the question then becomes one of how important and how persistent that meta-game perspective is at any given table, because if it's low then stats aren't important...which means balancing them out isn't that important either...which means you can roll the dice without fear... :)

What Oofta says here also points to another whole can of worms: does everything about a character need to be somehow reflected in the mechanics, or can the underlying mechanics be largely the same (and very simple) with personality and characterization representing the in-play differences? In 1e, most Fighters are mechanically very similar once you strip the paint off - and this isn't a problem at all provided players give their characters enough character to in effect bury the mechanics in personality. But - and I think this started in late 2e and certainly came into vogue with 3e - players started looking for mechanics to reflect their character ideas, leading to (in 3e/PF) an overcooked skill system, boatloads of prestige classes and an avalanche of feats; some of which are still around in 5e and all of which do very little other than complicate the game and (for someone like me) get in the way.

Hriston said:
This is just nitpicking, but the AD&D methods I-IV are in the DMG, not the PHB, which doesn't actually give a method for determining ability scores. Instead it says the DM will inform the player of which method to use. It's a good example of the tradition that ability score generation methods are an associative mechanic that reflect the characters' lack of control over their native abilities.
Either way, there's still a number of char-gen methods available in 1e and most noteworthy for this discussion is that they all involve rolling dice.

Another example is that it was the DM, not the player, that rolled ability scores for the character in the original game.
In 0e, you mean? In 1e the players roll, based on whatever option the DM is using for that game.

This points to yet another big change over the editions, though (man, we're hitting 'em all today!): in early editions what went on behind the DM's screen was a mystery to players. As time has gone on more and more of the game mechanics have been both exposed and moved to the player side. A clear example of this is that before 3e the DM had a combat matrix that determined your fighting capability (which she could tinker with if she wanted!); in 3e this information and mechanic moved to the player side: your BAB was right there on your sheet.

Both as DM and player I prefer the mystery.

Lan-"buried in personality, on a good day"-efan
 

This points to yet another big change over the editions, though (man, we're hitting 'em all today!): in early editions what went on behind the DM's screen was a mystery to players. As time has gone on more and more of the game mechanics have been both exposed and moved to the player side. A clear example of this is that before 3e the DM had a combat matrix that determined your fighting capability (which she could tinker with if she wanted!); in 3e this information and mechanic moved to the player side: your BAB was right there on your sheet.

Both as DM and player I prefer the mystery.
The way I see it, 5e is headed back in that direction. I run 5e with a screen, the way I did 1e, and it just works better that way, IMHO, while in 3e I'd rarely bother to hide a roll, just keep the monster's actual stats hidden - and in 4e there wasn't even much of a need to do that.
 

One reason that this thread is so long is that human nature leads us to treat the way we like things as the way things should be, and find it weird when we see people making the opposite choice. I see people who treat RPGs like a board game and my knee-jerk reaction is that they are having fun wrong. I don't get it. It seems to me like they are throwing away the best part of this extraordinary hobby just so that they can play a rather complex boardgame, whereas right-thinking people like me get the best of gaming AND role-playing in a believable world.

Perhaps you're being ironic, but you must realize that comparing the RPGing of others to a board-game is a common insult that people who don't have Gamist priorities in game-play use for people who do, and I have to wonder why you feel it necessary to litter your posts with insults in this way.

Both 'general characters' AND 'special characters' ARE 'the general population'! Every guard, sage, hedge wizard etc. may need stats which reflect their areas of expertise, but they are not some distinct species! The only people who aren't the 'general population' in this context are the adventurers themselves.

That you would consider special characters, but not adventurers, to be part of the general population along with general characters, which are named in that way solely to indicate that they are indeed the group of people who make up the general population, shows that you are simply unfamiliar with the conventions used by the author. There are separate rules to account for the abilities in which general characters may need above average scores. Laborers, for example, have a +1 to +3 bonus to STR, level 0 mercenaries add +1 to STR and +3 to CON, and merchants have their INT and CHA set to a minimum of 12. Those are all adjustments to the 3d-averaging roll.
 

/snip

Being dismissive of our arguments based on the continued failed argument put forth above just makes you look bad. Agree or disagree with what we are saying, but don't just dismiss what we are saying just because we don't change or are okay with some other aspect of the game.

I'm dismissive because it's awfully convenient. "It's totally unrealistic to pick your stats. But, it's perfectly okay to pick EVERY OTHER ASPECT of your character." Snort. Yeah, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to your point if it wasn't the only thing that you find unrealistic.

Oh, and I don't even understand how choosing class made it into your example above. We choose our professions in real life, so choosing class is already realistic.

How does one "choose" to be a sorcerer? It's innate and cannot be taught. So, I presume that there are no sorcerers in your game, since that would be totally unrealistic. Equally as unrealistic as choosing your stats at the very least.
 

I'm dismissive because it's awfully convenient. "It's totally unrealistic to pick your stats. But, it's perfectly okay to pick EVERY OTHER ASPECT of your character." Snort. Yeah, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to your point if it wasn't the only thing that you find unrealistic.
Upthread, Max & waxed nostalgic about running AD&D back in the day and randomly generating all sorts of stuff like that for PCs - race, place of origin, social class, etc...
... stats are one thing that's always at least had the option of being random, so maybe he's focusing on that because he has it, and has written off the others?

How does one "choose" to be a sorcerer? It's innate and cannot be taught. So, I presume that there are no sorcerers in your game, since that would be totally unrealistic. Equally as unrealistic as choosing your stats at the very least.
Undeniably, the more about your character's origin that is random, the more realistic, something like having a possibly-sorcerous heritage, for instance, not under the characters control, and probably quite rare...
... that might not mean no sorcerers, but it might mean you only have the option of gaining sorcerer levels if your randomly-determined heritage supports it.
 

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