D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hussar]

But, Tony V, the problem is, even if Maxperson was using all those random tables back in the day, he's not arguing that now. He's perfectly fine with choosing EVERY OTHER ASPECT of the character besides stats, and then tries to claim that it's more "realistic"

I suppose, it makes some sense in a way. If you buy the argument that random generation is more realistic, then, having one element randomly generated does make it more realistic than having no elements randomly generated.

Only problem is, at that point, it's two smurfs arguing who is more blue. When such a tiny part of the character generation process is randomized, and, even then, not particularly randomized since you still arrange numbers to taste AND use a rolling method that cuts down the random element, it's bloody ridiculous to argue that it's more realistic.

I mean, the first two steps in the 5e PHB are CHOOSE race and CHOOSE class. There's a pretty large implication there. And since [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] is all about the RAW, I wonder how he reconciles the fact that you choose those before stats. Isn't the implication that you are going to get stats that fit your race and class? So, realistically, how random is the system anyway?

But, in a system where you have only one random element, and you don't even have to use that since Array is ALSO the baseline, I find the argument that we're striving for realism in chargen to be very lacking.

 

[Maxperson]

Upthread, Max & waxed nostalgic about running AD&D back in the day and randomly generating all sorts of stuff like that for PCs - race, place of origin, social class, etc...
... stats are one thing that's always at least had the option of being random, so maybe he's focusing on that because he has it, and has written off the others?

I've also repeatedly said here in this thread that there are many unrealistic things that I accept, but that acceptance of some does not invalidate the desire for other things to be more realistic. I'm kind of tired of the lies and trollish behavior that some here are directing my way.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But, Tony V, the problem is, even if Maxperson was using all those random tables back in the day, he's not arguing that now. He's perfectly fine with choosing EVERY OTHER ASPECT of the character besides stats, and then tries to claim that it's more "realistic"

Randomly determining each other thing would be progressively more 'realistic,' in the same sense, yes. That the game has you choose practically everything about your character at this point doesn't render it less un-realistic to also choose your natural aptitudes. I get that it's inconsistent, of course...

I suppose, it makes some sense in a way. If you buy the argument that random generation is more realistic, then, having one element randomly generated does make it more realistic than having no elements randomly generated.

Exactly, yes. That's as far as it goes.

Only problem is, at that point, it's two smurfs arguing who is more blue. When such a tiny part of the character generation process is randomized, and, even then, not particularly randomized since you still arrange numbers to taste AND use a rolling method that cuts down the random element, it's bloody ridiculous to argue that it's more realistic.

It is a matter of degrees, and the degree involved in the default PH method is really slight. When I concede that random has that element of verisimersistencealism, I'm usually thinking more of roll-in-order, which is more pronounced.

But, in a system where you have only one random element, and you don't even have to use that since Array is ALSO the baseline, I find the argument that we're striving for realism in chargen to be very lacking.

Consider it hanging onto a last tattered little fig-leaf of realism in a very unrealistic game, then. ;P

 

[Maxperson]

Randomly determining each other thing would be progressively more 'realistic,' in the same sense, yes. That the game has you choose practically everything about your character at this point doesn't render it less un-realistic to also choose your natural aptitudes. I get that it's inconsistent, of course...

Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure I've said at least once that we still roll backgrounds with Central Casting for most of our campaigns. We also roll stats in order, though I do allow them to swap a single pair of stats for the sake of fun. Is that slightly less realistic than keeping them? Yes. Is it more realistic than point buy and array? Also yes.

 

[Hussar]

I've also repeatedly said here in this thread that there are many unrealistic things that I accept, but that acceptance of some does not invalidate the desire for other things to be more realistic. I'm kind of tired of the lies and trollish behavior that some here are directing my way.

See, [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], if it actually was "some" then I might be more sympathetic. But, it's not. It's one single element out of several that are specifically chosen by the player which you then plant the flag of realism on. "Look, I like realism because I like die rolling despite the fact that these other fifteen things are chosen by the players"

Like Tony V says, it's hanging a fig leaf.

IOW, the list of unrealistic things that you accept absolutely dwarfs the one thing that you don't. EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the character is chosen by the player except base stats. And, your justification for random stats (PC's should have no control over their stats) is equally true of all those other things you have no problems with.

Claiming that you hate chocolate while chowing down on M&M's does tend to raise eyebrows.

 

[Hussar]

/edit - whoops double post.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Claiming that you hate chocolate while chowing down on M&M's does tend to raise eyebrows.

You can totally enjoy the candy coating before getting to the chocolate, kinda the opposite of a tootsie pop....

 

[Maxperson]

You can totally enjoy the candy coating before getting to the chocolate, kinda the opposite of a tootsie pop....

Heh. You can also enjoy the candy coating, remove the chocolate, and enjoy the peanut.

 

[Hussar]

There's a problem with the analogy though. You're not removing the chocolate. You're chowing down. You have no problems with all the other things that aren't randomly generated that are beyond the PC's control, and then complaining about one thing that is exactly the same thing as all the other things.

Yup, I can believe 6 impossible things before breakfast, but that seventh, which is identical to the first six, is completely going to far.

 

[Harzel]

Lan-"people don't walk around in the game world with little 'PC' or 'NPC' stickers on their foreheads"-efan

That's right it's not on their forehead. It floats above their head along with their name, health bar, and CR.