D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hussar]

Which would be fine but random also allows a much greater disparity between pc’s. While you might get some of that with point buy it isn’t potentially several ASI’s worth.

 

[Hriston]

Well, to be picky, you haven't. The dice have, via random chance.

Yeah, well, [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] said it's impossible to put any numbers on his character sheet without his picking them, so he must have agreed to pick them in advance of rolling.

Fair point; I'd forogtten about the low-average-high ratings from 1e - even though I play and DM it, and give most species stat ranges rather than fixed numbers, I haven't used those actual terms for ages - to the point I'd forgotten they were even there.

They're still there. It took me a minute after reading your comment to remember that 1e doesn't generally give ability scores to monsters. The intelligence ratings are about as close as it gets.

So no human commoner can have Int less than 10?

Hey, can we please have this idea ported over to the real world somehow?

More seriously: dumb rule. I guess the 5e designers wanted to give DMs places to practice their shiny new rulings-not-rules powers...

It isn't a rule. It's an NPC stat-block. Its scores are all 10. The DM is explicitly empowered to tweak NPC stat-blocks in 5e, so you could have a commoner with whatever scores you want, just like you could have an ogre with whatever scores you want for that matter. Just like a monster, however, it's given with a single array of scores, as if every humanoid commoner has a 10 in every ability (plus racial bonus of course).

In 0e, you mean?

Yes, in the original edition of D&D the DM (or "referee") rolls the ability score of the PCs to help the players decide what class to play.

 

[Hriston]

Nope. Class levels aren't even remotely required to roll stats for NPCs in 5e. Page 89 says that NPC doesn't need combat statistics. Not needing them means that they can have them by the rules if the DM wants. If they couldn't, they would not have bothered to say that. Page 89 also says you don't need to roll stats, which means that you can roll stats if you want to. Page 92 under NPC statistics(before you get to classes and levels) says "When you give NPCs statistics, you have three main options...". Only one of which involves classes and levels. That means that every Tom, Dick and Commoner can have rolled stats by the 5e rules.

I agree. The rules give permission to roll ability scores for NPCs, including commoners. But they don't give any rules for that per se, i.e. they don't tell you which dice to use or how many.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, well, @Maxperson said it's impossible to put any numbers on his character sheet without his picking them, so he must have agreed to pick them in advance of rolling.

I never said that. I said you can't pick numbers you roll. Since they don't exist when you pick the method of to get your stats, there's no selection of any numbers. They do end up on your sheet, though. Pay better attention and you won't blunder like this.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree. The rules give permission to roll ability scores for NPCs, including commoners. But they don't give any rules for that per se, i.e. they don't tell you which dice to use or how many.

There are only one set of rules for rolling stats, so 4d6-L is the method. It has never been the case that things in the PHB are only for players or PCs.

 

[Hriston]

I never said that. I said you can't pick numbers you roll. Since they don't exist when you pick the method of to get your stats, there's no selection of any numbers. They do end up on your sheet, though. Pay better attention and you won't blunder like this.

This is the quote to which I was responding:

If I pick the standard array, I have picked those numbers. They are impossible to place on my sheet without picking them.

So if [numbers] are impossible to place on [your] sheet without picking them, I figured you must pick them when you roll. I see now you meant only the numbers of the standard array, which seems odd to me. What's so special about those particular numbers that requires you to pick them? What if you happened to roll up the standard array? Would you have to pick them then, or could you write them on your sheet without picking them, and which would be more realistic?

There are only one set of rules for rolling stats, so 4d6-L is the method. It has never been the case that things in the PHB are only for players or PCs.

Wait, you use 4d6 drop lowest for commoners!? But I thought adventurers were supposed to be "a cut above"! The rulebooks themselves say, "10 or 11 is the normal human average," but using 4d6 drop lowest you give them an average of 12.24!

 

[Maxperson]

So if [numbers] are impossible to place on [your] sheet without picking them, I figured you must pick them when you roll. I see now you meant only the numbers of the standard array, which seems odd to me. What's so special about those particular numbers that requires you to pick them?

They exist, that's what. I cannot pick the array without selecting the array numbers. There are no numbers whatsoever prior to rolling, so when I pick rolling I have picked no numbers. I then proceed roll and those numbers go onto my sheet without my picking them.

What if you happened to roll up the standard array?

Other than a colossal coincidence, nothing.

Would you have to pick them then, or could you write them on your sheet without picking them, and which would be more realistic?

Rolling is always more realistic than point buys or arrays.

Wait, you use 4d6 drop lowest for commoners!?

No, but that's what the 5e rules give all NPCs, which includes commoners, to roll. I've said it many time, and I guess I have to say it again since it doesn't seem to stick in your head. Never assume that what I'm arguing is what I do, unless I am specifically saying that I do it. I argue what the rules say in rules discussions, not what I do.

But I thought adventurers were supposed to be "a cut above"! The rulebooks themselves say, "10 or 11 is the normal human average," but using 4d6 drop lowest you give them an average of 12.24!

Stats aren't what makes adventurers the "cut above" in 5e. Class abilities, magic items, feats, etc. are.

 

[Hussar]

So, just to be clear here [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], not only are you claiming that die rolling creates a more realistic game world, but also we need to use 4d6-L? And now that creates our "more realistic" game world?

 

[Hussar]

There's a point to remember here as well. If you actually do the 15x3, 8x3 character, you are screwing yourself out of effectively 2 ASI's. That adds up to a 69 total. Standard array adds up to 72. And, AFAIC, this is a good thing. I'd rather the game didn't reward hyper specialization. If you do the typical combat monster of 15's in Str, Dex and Con and 8 in Int, Wis and Cha, you are going to pretty much fail most of the time whenever anything out of combat happens. Sure, you might be decent at Stength skills, but, everything else, and certainly any social skills are going to be seriously lacking.

Overall, you're better off making a well rounded character. The game actually rewards you for making a well rounded character. That's a good thing. I'd much rather characters at the table can contribute no matter what's going on at the time. That three dump stat character is so one dimensional that it's boring.

But, in any case, if you add up the stats for a PC, for every 2 points above 72 that you are, you have effectively added one ASI to the character. How much impact you think that has is up to you (whoever you happen to be). But, it's undeniable that it will have an impact.

 

[Lanefan]

Never minding that [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION] is still insisting that a chargen method meant for PC's MUST be applied to NPC's, when that is flat out contradicted by the rules.

Rules, even the best-intentioned ones, can be flat-out wrong sometimes...

He's also insisting on the presumption that all NPC's MUST have an 3-18 range, when that isn't true in 5e. They don't have a range at all. If we are insisting that we use PC gen rules for NPC's, then the range is 3-15. THAT is the range for normal humans.

How are you getting at a 3-15 range for Humans? Or did you mean to type 8-15?