D&D 5E Why D&D is not (just) Tolkien

[Caliburn101]

You might want to follow your own advice, especially when chastising others. While the AD&D ranger was influenced by Tolkien, he did not make them up. The term actually goes back to the 1600s, describing lone men who policed the wilds and borderlands. It also has roots in American frontiersman, and when the US army used to term to describe a group of elite soldiers in 1942, it wasn’t because Tolkien came up with the term or the concept. No, rangers both in name and in concept of the role existed long before Tolkien used it in his writing.

If you think a party of heroes in a fantasy type setting wasn’t done until Tolkien, then you might want to brush up on your folklore.

And if you think the D&D concept of leveling was because of Gandalf going from grey to white, well, let’s just say I find that extremely tenuous at best.

I suggest you also read up on influential source material for Tolkien, beacause everything else you listed (powerful wizard, dragon, etc) all existed in folklore almost exactly like they appear in his writings. He did not make up on his own.

Ah hello again - still focussing on the minutiae and missing the big picture eh? I might be wrong but it does seem to be a theme of yours.

I have some more minutiae for you, just in case they didn't occur to you;

Cloak of Elvenkind
Ring of Invisibility
ORCS
Goblins (of the non-fae variety)
The Turning of Undead with 'holy' light (Tom Bombadil was the model for that Cleric ability - I asked Gygax that myself btw).

Oh yes, I am reasonably long in the tooth and talked to the fantastic fellow - and he confirmed everything (edit - possibly nearly everything - see below) I have told you so far.

I don't give a monkey's uncle whether you believe me or not, and no, I can't produce a photo 'cos back then mobiles were not a thing and I was not in the habit of carrying a film camera wherever I went. That was my dad's thing.

Other influences he said were top of his thinking;

Conan novels (we both love 'em)
Dr. Strange (we heartily agreed this was cool)
Jack Vance (yes, that one's well know ofc)
Elric (Sword of Kas)
Aladdin
Greek Mythology

Plus basically he said he took the most from Tolkien as his earliest dive into fantasy that shaped a young mind or words to that effect. We both agreed on that - alongside Conan it was for me too.

Oh and his character Mordenkainen was a mixture of Leminkainen (he loved Finnish Mythology and it's Egyptian cosmology crossovers) and Mordo from Dr. Strange. THAT one got me animated - being an archaeologist at the time, I thought he wouldn't know something like the legend of Leminkainen, you know, pre the oracle of Google. Of course he had hair originally as did Dr. Strange, but that changed.

Interestingly, I just checked the Wiki on that, and it says the other name is Mordekai. I am sure they have that wrong. Might be wrong myself of course, I am referring to a very old conversation. Dr. Strange was definitely in their as a strong influence.

Still...

Oh yes, I was an archaeologist back in the day, and so it is logical to assume I know plenty about mythology and folklore ya presumptive little jester you. Certainly without the use of the internet, anyway... I can also quote the Epic of Gilgamesh and several verses of the Elder Edda - not that you care of course...

... you know that it's the best put-down wins the argument on the internet - not actually a valid argument!

I can't remember the other stuff - I only recollect the stuff we enthusiastically agreed on, but there was enough of that really. I had to stand at the back of the queue to meet him just to make sure I got the longest chat.

Feel good factor - some memories are like that.

As for your most sarcastic comment Sacrosanct - show me a link to a group of ADVENTURERS on a QUEST with a MAGIC USER, FIGHTING-MEN and a THIEF in the party in a mythological tale, fairy story or any other historical source whatsoever, and I'll conceded that point. otherwise - brush up on your style of rejoinder - you know, to avoid foot in mouth circumstances.

If you are tempted to pick at the threads of what I am saying and fail to produce anything substantial in a holistic answer to my point - well, it will just prove my point - that Tolkien was the main influence and at least a 4. on the poll scale.

1. and 2. are clearly ridiculous, and need the homework as I stated - 3. is a matter of balance and opinion, but doesn't to me mean a majority - which I think is by a country mile the most logical argument considering the non-complete list of things I have put in my posts, and of course 4. and 5. are the strongest scores in terms of rectitude, with 4. right on the money in my opinion.

 

[blinkdogz]

Why has no one mentioned Edgar Rice Burroughs? There are many more direct references to Barsoom and John Carter in the original D&D booklets than allusions to Tolkien. Mind you, by the time 1e arrived they'd been expunged. But when I first started playing in 1975/6 it was John Carter I was emulating, not Aragorn and chums.

 

[Caliburn101]

Why has no one mentioned Edgar Rice Burroughs? There are many more direct references to Barsoom and John Carter in the original D&D booklets than allusions to Tolkien. Mind you, by the time 1e arrived they'd been expunged. But when I first started playing in 1975/6 it was John Carter I was emulating, not Aragorn and chums.

I always thought that but never mentioned it in conversation (as above).

Nevertheless, I am sure you are correct - both to think it and mention it as a notable omission thusfar, and now corrected.

 

[Salamandyr]

Why has no one mentioned Edgar Rice Burroughs? There are many more direct references to Barsoom and John Carter in the original D&D booklets than allusions to Tolkien. Mind you, by the time 1e arrived they'd been expunged. But when I first started playing in 1975/6 it was John Carter I was emulating, not Aragorn and chums.

My gosh, I just came back because I remembered I forgot to mention Burroughs. Heck, the very name "Fighting Man", the term one handed "longsword", white apes, pretty much the entire idea of second world fantasy.

Not to mention that every bit of 20th century pop culture owes its genesis to Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Thank you for bringing him to the table. Definitely Burroughs.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sacrosanct]

Ah hello again - still focussing on the minutiae and missing the big picture eh? I might be wrong but it does seem to be a theme of yours.
.

Focusing on the minutiae? I was replying to what you wrote. If you didn't mean to say that Tolkien completely made up the ranger concept and name, then don't say "Rangers - entirely made up by Tolkien". If you didn't mean to say that Tolkien was the first to have a story about a group of heroes adventuring, then don't say "Tolkien was the first to write this in this manner."

Blaming me and attacking me personally for the words you wrote is pretty darn disingenuous.

And if you did mean to say those things, then blaming and attacking me for pointing out how that's not true is also disingenuous.

Edit* And for an example of fighting men/magic users/thieves: I shall refer you to Jason and Medea. Jason: fighting man. Medea: sorcererss. Half of his crew: thieves. And that's not even considering Robert E Howard (who wrote many of this stories in the 1920s). Or heck, Geoffrey of Monmouth for that matter. The idea that Tolkien was the first person to ever write about a group of heroes in a fantasy/mythological setting on a quest is laughable.

 

[Parmandur]

The word "Orc" does predate Tolkien, but not in reference to grotesque monstrous pseudo-humans: it was of Latin derivation, Orcus, referring to foul spirits related to the Lord of the underworld. D&D Orcs had pig faces, but other than that are Tolkienian, not from Beowulf, where the word was usually translated as evil spirits prior to... Tolkien's Beowulf work.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Those early D&D orcs look like D&D kobolds, and it sounds like they filled much the same role.

Maybe I'm misreading. Are you saying AD&D orcs filled the same role as AD&D kobolds? They didn't. Basically the same difference as they are now in 5e. Kobolds were the cowardly trap setting small and weak humanoids, and orcs were larger, better equipped and tactical, and were the equivalent of a first level fighter.

 

[ART!]

Why has no one mentioned Edgar Rice Burroughs? There are many more direct references to Barsoom and John Carter in the original D&D booklets than allusions to Tolkien. Mind you, by the time 1e arrived they'd been expunged. But when I first started playing in 1975/6 it was John Carter I was emulating, not Aragorn and chums.

I'd never really thought of this - or maybe I saw the references back in the day and forgot. Some rules for blasters and flying ships and you're set!

 

[ART!]

Maybe I'm misreading. Are you saying AD&D orcs filled the same role as AD&D kobolds? They didn't. Basically the same difference as they are now in 5e. Kobolds were the cowardly trap setting small and weak humanoids, and orcs were larger, better equipped and tactical, and were the equivalent of a first level fighter.

My memory of what was in which early editions is pretty vague. That illo of early D&D orcs looked like kobolds to me, so I assumed they were smallish and easily beaten.