D&D 5E Why D&D is not (just) Tolkien

[Celebrim]

So that's it. Sort of a let down I suppose - there's really no "inspiration" there except some player wanted to pick some locks and the DM came up with a thief class from there. And now, the above is not speculation or bragging, as you can see on Gary's end he writers it down and mentions he did get the idea from those players at Aero Hobbies.

Very cool. Thanks for providing the information. I was going to look for it, and now, here it is all nicely laid out.

The thief, with the exception of the wand use, is pretty nearly in a complete form with all the elements present in the original publication. This suggests that Gary could not in fact know the inspiration for the thief class himself, unless it was disclosed to him in a conversation or the source material was so obvious that anyone seeing this particular collection of abilities would immediately call in mind the source material. Any musing then by Gygax as to the inspiration would be speculation by him, since he ripped the ideas off from someone else. Unless we can actually find passages in Jack of Shadows and Eyes of the Overworld that place those ideas together in the same character, it's entirely possible that it was in fact just an ad hoc, spur of the moment innovation. I believe I have both books on my shelves, but not the time to skim through them at the moment.

 

[Parmandur]

I have not seen any evidence that Tolkien was not only the primary influence, but such a strong influence that the game may never have been made without him or that his influence was exponentionally greater than any other author. In fact, all evidence points to those claims being untrue. Therefore, when people are making those claims, I feel perfectly comfortable saying those people are over estimating his influence.

Yes, he was very popular. Yes, he had some influence. But not nearly as much as some people are claiming. What evidence do you have that Tolkien had a MUCH bigger influence in fantasy during the 60s and early 70s over Howard, Lieber, Moorcock, or Lovecraft? Because what most people were writing during that time certainly isn’t it.

I have zero interest in the argument over whether D&D would exist sans Tolkien, because alternate history is frankly silly: nobody can say. However, Tolkien was a major, major player before 1977, that's why something as frankly insane as the Silmarillion got published that year.

Well, he sold more books than those writers; Tolkien's been selling massively since the 30's. Tolkien imitations and fan fiction weren't in those pulps, because they had their own publications going on multiple continents, with Tolkien specific conventions going back to the 60's at least. The cartoon hardly hurt, and is great, but it didn't make Tolkien famous, since he was already massively well known by then.

 

[Gadget]

MMmm...while not being able to quantify Tolkien's influence and popularity in the 60's (when he hit his initial peak, with "Frodo Lives" appearing in the New York Subway systems as Graffiti), I can say it took years for his influence to be incorporated and gestate into works produced by others.

A few other Tolkienisms: Mithril shirt (though Tolkien never had Mithril weapons like D&D), the Balor is an obvious re-interpretation of Tolkien's Balrog, in fact I believe an earlier Monster resource for D&D actually had the name "Balrog" in it. More debatable is the ever popular Ring of invisibility, Tolkien didn't invent it, but he sure popularized it with Bilbo and later Frodo. Smaug probably had some influence on D&D dragons, but there are of course lots of Mythological Dragons to draw inspiration from.

I think it's clear that Gygax preferred a more Leiber/Vance/Howard tone to his game, and that comes through; however, it would be unwise to assume that Tolkien's influence was limited to pulling in a few races/monsters/magic items.

 

[Caliburn101]

Elves - Tolkien adaptation of Norse folklore
Dwarves - Tolkien adaptation of Norse folklore
Halflings - entirely made up by Tolkien
Rangers - entirely made up by Tolkien
Party of Adventurers on a quest against an evil overlord in a Fantasy World - Tolkien was the first to write this in this manner

D&D baseline assumption of a pseudo medieval world setting - just like Middle Earth
Magical Artefacts including magic swords etc. as part of a monster treasure trove - Tolkien (adapted from Nibelungen tale)
'Levelling Up' and having a power increase and title change associated with it (like 1st Edition) - Gandalf the Grey becomes Gandalf the White via Balrog fight
Mysterious Wizard who is more powerful than everyone and is mysterious and concerned about the whole world - roping adventurers into adventures - Gandalf<----->Mordenkainen
A red DRAGON (Smaug), in a gold-filled DUNGEON (Lonely Mountain)...

... do I really need to say any more?

Anyone who thinks that D&D was not fundamentally influenced by that just hasn't thought about it for more than 5 minutes.

Do some homework people...

 

[Sacrosanct]

Do some homework people...

You might want to follow your own advice, especially when chastising others. While the AD&D ranger was influenced by Tolkien, he did not make them up. The term actually goes back to the 1600s, describing lone men who policed the wilds and borderlands. It also has roots in American frontiersman, and when the US army used to term to describe a group of elite soldiers in 1942, it wasn’t because Tolkien came up with the term or the concept. No, rangers both in name and in concept of the role existed long before Tolkien used it in his writing.

If you think a party of heroes in a fantasy type setting wasn’t done until Tolkien, then you might want to brush up on your folklore.

And if you think the D&D concept of leveling was because of Gandalf going from grey to white, well, let’s just say I find that extremely tenuous at best.

I suggest you also read up on influential source material for Tolkien, beacause everything else you listed (powerful wizard, dragon, etc) all existed in folklore almost exactly like they appear in his writings. He did not make up on his own.

 

[Arilyn]

I have not seen any evidence that Tolkien was not only the primary influence, but such a strong influence that the game may never have been made without him or that his influence was exponentionally greater than any other author. In fact, all evidence points to those claims being untrue. Therefore, when people are making those claims, I feel perfectly comfortable saying those people are over estimating his influence.

Yes, he was very popular. Yes, he had some influence. But not nearly as much as some people are claiming. What evidence do you have that Tolkien had a MUCH bigger influence in fantasy during the 60s and early 70s over Howard, Lieber, Moorcock, or Lovecraft? Because what most people were writing during that time certainly isn’t it.

I have some evidence:

1. "Frodo Lives" splashed all over on shirts, bumper stickers, graffiti, etc.
2. Every second newly published fantasy during that time period had, "Biggest thing since Tolkien", or similar nonsense splashed all over it
3. The publication of "Bored of the Rings" in 1969. You don't parody something, unless it's big
4. My dad and people like him read the books, but no other fantasy or science fiction at all

 

[Parmandur]

I have some evidence:

1. "Frodo Lives" splashed all over on shirts, bumper stickers, graffiti, etc.
2. Every second newly published fantasy during that time period had, "Biggest thing since Tolkien", or similar nonsense splashed all over it
3. The publication of "Bored of the Rings" in 1969. You don't parody something, unless it's big
4. My dad and people like him read the books, but no other fantasy or science fiction at all

That last bit is an interesting point: Tolkien fandom was largely independent of the traditional sci-fi fandom of that generation: more mainstream.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I have some evidence:

1. "Frodo Lives" splashed all over on shirts, bumper stickers, graffiti, etc.
2. Every second newly published fantasy during that time period had, "Biggest thing since Tolkien", or similar nonsense splashed all over it
3. The publication of "Bored of the Rings" in 1969. You don't parody something, unless it's big
4. My dad and people like him read the books, but no other fantasy or science fiction at all

Oh, well if you and your dad read them and not the others, clearly that’s proof he was exponentially more popular than any other fantasy author of the time...


Good lord.

And where are all these books titled “best thing since Tolkien”? Do you have any actual evidence? Because all of the actual books being written then (Earthsea, Prydain Chronicles, Phantom Tollbooth, Anne McCaffery, etc), were not emulating Tolkien’s style, and I don’t recall any of those such ad blurbs.

I never said he’s not popular. But the claim was that he was exponentially more popular than any other influence to the point where he accounts for D&D being a thing. Looking at D&D, and ALL of the influences, and there simply isn’t evidence to support that claim. Had an influence, yes. But as has been repeatedly pointed out, just because D&D and Tolkien have similar things, does not mean Tolkien created those things.

 

[Yaarel]

Elves - Tolkien adaptation of Norse folklore
Dwarves - Tolkien adaptation of Norse folklore
Halflings - entirely made up by Tolkien
Rangers - entirely made up by Tolkien
Party of Adventurers on a quest against an evil overlord in a Fantasy World - Tolkien was the first to write this in this manner

Yup. Tolkien invented a unique kind of Elf, a unique kind of Dwarf, and a unique kind of British ‘Hob’ (Brownie, house spirit).



The only feature that the Tolkien Elf shares with the Norse Elf, is full human height.

The Norse Elf is an animistic sky spirit, who lives in ‘heaven’, and who personifies sunlight, sunrays and the solar corona. They personify magic, luck, successful fate, sexuality, charm, enchantment, and superhuman beauty.



The only feature that the Tolkien Dwarf shares with the Norse Dwarf is ... nothing?

The Norse Dwarf is an animistic land spirit, who lives ‘underground’, inside rocks, and petrify into stone in direct sunlight. The Norse Dwarf is tall, fully human size. (Unlike the short German Saxon Dwarf.) The Norse Dwarf has black hair, sunless deathly pale skin, and personifies magic and technology, typically is a shapechanger, lethargic and antisocial, yet vengeful and competitive. The Dwarf is a source of luck too, like the Elf, but the Dwarf begrudges giving luck to anyone else, and is often tricked into doing so, which then provokes the Dwarven vengeance.



D&D gets its Tolkien Elf and Tolkien Dwarf from Tolkien.

 

[Arilyn]

Oh, well if you and your dad read them and not the others, clearly that’s proof he was exponentially more popular than any other fantasy author of the time...


Good lord.

And where are all these books titled “best thing since Tolkien”? Do you have any actual evidence? Because all of the actual books being written then (Earthsea, Prydain Chronicles, Phantom Tollbooth, Anne McCaffery, etc), were not emulating Tolkien’s style, and I don’t recall any of those such ad blurbs.

I never said he’s not popular. But the claim was that he was exponentially more popular than any other influence to the point where he accounts for D&D being a thing. Looking at D&D, and ALL of the influences, and there simply isn’t evidence to support that claim. Had an influence, yes. But as has been repeatedly pointed out, just because D&D and Tolkien have similar things, does not mean Tolkien created those things.

I was reading fantasy in the late 70s, and yes, "best thing since Tolkien" was splashed over many of them, often the bad ones. And they didn't have to be remotely like Tolkien to get the blurb either. My comment about my dad was an example that loads of non- fantasy fans read "Lord of the Rings", because they had permeated mainstream culture.

There were lots of other popular fantasy authors. Of course there were. As I mentioned previously, Tolkien was not my introduction to fantasy. I never read Lord of the Rings until my early 20s, because I tried when I was about 11, and couldn't get through it. I loved Poul Anderson, Anne McCaffrey, Patricia McKillip, Andre Norton...
My point has been that I had access to these writers because Tolkien paved the way. The environment was ripe for DnD because Tolkien had opened up the fantasy field. The fingerprints of Lord of the Rings is all over DnD. Other influences? Of course, but DnD was a huge influence on the early game. If it had been more inspired by Swords and Sorcery, we wouldn't have been able to create that list from Morrus' original thread. And yes, many of these things could have come from other sources, but is that a logical conclusion considering the popularity of Tolkien? Yes, Gygax downplayed Tolkien, but that happened later, when he was feeling pressured by accusations that his game borrowed heavily from "Lord of the Rings".

And finally, nobody has said Tolkien created all the things in his books, but he popularized them, and his vision of many creatures has become the norm.