D&D 5E Why D&D is not (just) Tolkien

[Guest 6801328]

You might want to follow your own advice, especially when chastising others. While the AD&D ranger was influenced by Tolkien, he did not make them up. The term actually goes back to the 1600s, describing lone men who policed the wilds and borderlands. It also has roots in American frontiersman, and when the US army used to term to describe a group of elite soldiers in 1942, it wasn’t because Tolkien came up with the term or the concept. No, rangers both in name and in concept of the role existed long before Tolkien used it in his writing.

FFS nobody is claiming Tolkien invented these things. Why does that keep getting offered as the straw man?

Almost everything in Tolkien drew inspiration from earlier sources. It's not even subtle, and he freely admitted it. So the argument that some element couldn't have been inspired by Tolkien because that element existed prior to Tolkien amounts to the claim that "it is impossible to be influenced by Tolkien." It would be like saying that Tolkien wasn't inspired by House of the Wolfings because Morris was in turn inspired by earlier sources. Ludicrous.

I'm giving up on these threads. It is blindingly, painfully obvious that D&D drew a ton of inspiration from Tolkien. Any claim to the contrary is...bizarre. Delusional.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the question of "would D&D have been different without Tolkien?" is rather untenable, because I can't strictly speaking imagine English speaking culture in the 20th century being the same without Tolkien: like asking if Kenneth Braunagh would have been a great actor if Shakespeare hadn't written any plays: Probably, but I can't even picture what the world would look like.

 

[Sacrosanct]

FFS nobody is claiming Tolkien invented these things. Why does that keep getting offered as the straw man?

.

Go look at that quote again. It’s not a straw man. He literally said, “Rangers—entirely made up by Tolkien.”

So yeah, someone did say that.

 

[Parmandur]

Go look at that quote again. It’s not a straw man. He literally said, “Rangers—entirely made up by Tolkien.”

So yeah, someone did say that.

The Ranger-as-described-in-D&D is designed around facilitating playing as Aragon, though. Somebody said "I wanna play Aragorn," and the DM, whether Gygax, Arneson or one of the other old guard started Strider up for play.

 

[Sunseeker]

Personally, I think Tolkein mostly provided family-friendly packaging for fantasy races.

 

[Harzel]

By looking at the material (books, fanzines, movies) that was being produced at the time. I've said this several times.

By that measure, I think you are probably correct. I'd certainly have to give you fanzines. For books and movies, I suspect you are right, but don't have any data (other than anecdotal); if you do, that would be interesting. Although in browsing to see if I could find any data, I came across the claim that the term 'high fantasy' was not invented until 1969 (Wikipedia article on High Fantasy).

I was thinking of 'popularity' more in terms of total readership.

S&S and mythology was being pushed out almost exclusively.

I assume you mean compared to high fantasy. There were certainly other book and movie genres that were much more common. Also, I believe the claim of yours that I was responding to compared Tolkien to other individual authors, not entire genres.

I can't think any any examples of people publishing stuff that was emulating Tolkien until the late 70s. Then it exploded. High Fantasy came like a train in 1977/78

This article musters only one example: "Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea series, beginning with A Wizard of Earthsea in 1968." That paucity would seem to bolster your point.

But to get back to the OP's subject - I largely agree with [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION]'s assessment in the OP, although even talking strictly influences on Gygax, I would accord Tolkien a bit more stature. In particular, I have a really hard time not seeing Tolkien in D&D's elves, dwarves, half-elves, and hobbits, er, halflings, particularly their status as potential main protagonists, who find alliances with each other and humans fairly acceptable (though perhaps not quite ideal). Also, Gygax certainly name-checked Tolkien early on, so he was at least thinking a lot about Tolkien with respect to D&D.

That said, even if you allow that Gygax drew a number of significant game elements from Tolkien, it seems to me that especially as Gygax (and Arneson) originally conceived of the game, the driving force, the mechanics, the expected motivation for PCs, seem more Howard (and others), than Tolkien. Even in The Hobbit​ you have to strip away a lot before you are down to kill monsters and take their stuff.

 

[Arilyn]

FFS nobody is claiming Tolkien invented these things. Why does that keep getting offered as the straw man?

Almost everything in Tolkien drew inspiration from earlier sources. It's not even subtle, and he freely admitted it. So the argument that some element couldn't have been inspired by Tolkien because that element existed prior to Tolkien amounts to the claim that "it is impossible to be influenced by Tolkien." It would be like saying that Tolkien wasn't inspired by House of the Wolfings because Morris was in turn inspired by earlier sources. Ludicrous.

I'm giving up on these threads. It is blindingly, painfully obvious that D&D drew a ton of inspiration from Tolkien. Any claim to the contrary is...bizarre. Delusional.

Yep. I'm done too. We are just going in circles.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The Ranger-as-described-in-D&D is designed around facilitating playing as Aragon, though. Somebody said "I wanna play Aragorn," and the DM, whether Gygax, Arneson or one of the other old guard started Strider up for play.

Wrong. Aragorn is one example, but the concept of the woodsman-hero and more specifically the Ranger had a huge presence in pop culture prior to and independent of Tolkien. Example: Military, Westerns. All such versions have similar skillsets and apptitudes for fighting, tracking, scouting, stealth or reconnaissance.

 

[Parmandur]

Wrong. Aragorn is one example, but the concept of the woodsman-hero and more specifically the Ranger had a huge presence in pop culture prior to and independent of Tolkien. Example: Military, Westerns. All such versions have similar skillsets and apptitudes for fighting, tracking, scouting, stealth or reconnaissance.

I am fairly certain the particular origins of the Ranger in D&D of some dude asking to be Aragorn is documented (Play the World, I think). The particular blend of fighting, wilderness skill and magic use is as clearly Aragorn as the Barbarian is a Conan pastiche: denying that is a silly as saying Tolkien invented named swords.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I am fairly certain the particular origins of the Ranger in D&D of some dude asking to be Aragorn is documented (Play the World, I think). The particular blend of fighting, wilderness skill and magic use is as clearly Aragorn as the Barbarian is a Conan pastiche: denying that is a silly as saying Tolkien invented named swords.

Do feel free to 1) provide a shred of evidence, 2) explain why all the other woodsmen-heroes that Gygax personally cited as (general) inspirations aren't actually applicable, and/or 3) explain away all the ranger features that do not fit your supposed pastiche, such as casting mage spells or attracting fantastic beasts like unicorns as followers. Funny in particular that you bring up magic, since Aragorn never uses any. Palantiri seeing stone yeah, magic spells no.

(Historical note: Joe Fischer is credited with creation of the original class, which Gygax subsequently edited before adding to AD&D. It can be found here)