D&D 5E I really like orcs & goblins, and stories that incorporate them.

[TheCosmicKid]

My feeling is that there are plenty of races presumed to have a culturally rich background. Orcs are for pummeling villages and being pummeled by heroes. They get the evil incarnate treatment in my setting because I have better vectors to explore cultural significance than orcs.

I feel similarly. As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, I split the difference: Orcs are innately psychotic monsters driven by malign supernatural corruption. Goblins, however, are an ordinary humanoid species who just happen to have a long history of bad blood with their human, elf, and dwarf neighbors, over the course of which they have not exactly acted like saints but neither has anyone else.

 

[Slit518]

It just occurred to me, but maybe in many fantasy settings crcs are considered evil because they are something akin to half animal half humanoid (pig snouts, tusks, etc...).

And by this, I mean their brains aren't fully developed on an evolutionary scale.

They still are connected to the primal and instinctive realms of animals, this can be shown in past editions (and even this one), by getting a -1 or -2 or -4 (depending on edition) to Intelligence.

Not saying there aren't any orcs that have grown to be smart, but it's a rare occurrence (in favor for Strength based builds) due to the minus they get to Intelligence.

Just imagine how many CCs (cubic centimeters) an orc brain has compared to a human.

On average, your modern day human has 1350 CCs of brain capacity, while an orc may have (if 10 is average Intelligence, an orcs get -2 to Intelligence, it means their average is 8)

So it appears that an orc on average will have 20% less brain power than a human, meaning they probably have 1080 CCs of brain capacity.

If you use the Intelligence score as a measure of IQ for the character (multiply score by 10, add result of 1d10 where 10 counts as 0 to determine IQ), it appears an orc on average would have 80-89 IQ.

With that type of average for intelligence, this being the top of the bell curve, an orc society is full of dull-minded individuals.

With a -2 to Intelligence that means their base score starts off at a 6 before being raised.

An orc with 7 Intelligence would have have some sort of borderline deficiency, while an orc with 6 Intelligence would be classified as retarded.

So with this reason, I feel orcs are more "evil" because they are still more primal in nature.

They have not evolved or developed a brain big enough for complex understanding (aside from an elite few), and it's easier for them to accomplish tasks through might (since they have genes that promote body growth) than it would be for them to figure it out.

In this sense, the orcs appear evil, when in fact they are less evolved as a species, and find an easier time raiding, pillaging, raping, murdering, etc...

P.S.

Their low IQs make them good for following orders and being general laborers.

Though complex tasks that require too much thought may anger them, causing the orcs to lash out in anger and destruction.

 

[Schmoe]

I love goblins and orcs! But I HATE the whole cliche “inherently evil race” trope. It’s such lazy writing. Inherently evil race is just code for “I want my good guys to be able to slaughter hordes of sapient opponents without raising any messy questions of morality.”

No thank you. Orcs and goblins in my eyes should be allowed to be just as capable of good or evil as humans or elves or dwarves.

Goblins in particular have managed to earn a lot of fondness from me thanks to the way Terry Pratchett portrayed them in some of the later Discworld books. If you want to read something that makes you rethink the role of goblins in your fantasy setting, check out Snuff and Raising Steam. Goblin culture on the Disc is fascinating.

Huh. Weird, but, I want my good guys to be able to slaughter hordes of sapient opponents without raising any messy questions of morality. Go figure

 

[BookBarbarian]

I remember reading the Manual to Warcraft 2 back in what was it? 1996. It already had mentions of Kil'Jaeden influencing Gul'dan, Doomhammer becoming Warchief of the Horde and culling Gul'dan's warlocks.

By Warcraft 3 the story had been further refined (which is a nice way of saying retconned) with the addition of Mannoroths blood literally being the corrupting factor to the Orcs.

So the Warcraft Orcs having a culture beyond just evil things to be killed is something that's at least 20 years old.

As such i quite like Warcraft Orcs and use it for my D&D Orc culture. I also like them as pseudo steppes culture (but with Worgs instead of horses). I also like to put them in conflict with Hobgoblin society which is much more Martial compared to the Orcs' tribal culture.

 

[Schmoe]

Classically, orcs are demons. The word orc probably derives from Latin Orcus, and is explicitly defined in one Old English glossary as "hel-deofol".

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't making the claim that official campaigns say this. Frankly, I don't play official campaigns enough to comment one way or the other. I was just calling attention to the geography as described in sources like the Monster Manual, where orcs tend to be a threat that is nearby on the Material Plane, and demons are not. And this basic pattern is generally followed in official and homebrew campaigns, in my experience. Then I was saying that, given this pattern, making the nearby threat intrinsically evil might create a campaign with more tension than one where the only intrinsic evil threat is the distant one. Doesn't have to be this way. You're certainly not doing things wrong if you don't do it this way. But it's one reason a DM might have intrinsically evil orcs.

I will mention, though, that the 5E PHB comments on orc alignment on p. 122, describing a situation that's something of a middle ground: orcs are created by evil deities, and evil deities being evil they have no use for free will, so orcs feel a strong innate pull towards evil. But it's not completely irresistible, unlike the devils in the next paragraph which are essentially evil. This, again, is a premise that could have fascinating consequences in the hands of a good writer or DM, and, pace [MENTION=6853887]zeldafan42[/MENTION], is far from simply an excuse to have guilt-free slaughter.

This is an outstanding clarification and distinction in the PHB that matches up well with how I generally do things. Most humanoids are innately evil, but not inherently evil as part of their essence. When the patron of your race is a savage demon lord like Yeenoghu (gnolls, for example), it will take an awful lot of strange circumstance and influence to make you good. Still, it allows for wholesale slaughter of humanoids without any messy moral quandaries, as generally it's a kill-or-be-killed situation. If you stumble into a room and murder 4 sleeping goblins, you can rest assured that you prevented some murderous future act and generally "did a good thing."

I reserve the PHB races for moral quandaries. There are plenty of evil and shades-of-gray humans and demi-humans. That's room for more than enough moral handwringing in my fantasy escapism for me.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

It just occurred to me, but maybe in many fantasy settings crcs are considered evil because they are something akin to half animal half humanoid (pig snouts, tusks, etc...).

And by this, I mean their brains aren't fully developed on an evolutionary scale.

They still are connected to the primal and instinctive realms of animals, this can be shown in past editions (and even this one), by getting a -1 or -2 or -4 (depending on edition) to Intelligence.

Not saying there aren't any orcs that have grown to be smart, but it's a rare occurrence (in favor for Strength based builds) due to the minus they get to Intelligence.

Just imagine how many CCs (cubic centimeters) an orc brain has compared to a human.

On average, your modern day human has 1350 CCs of brain capacity, while an orc may have (if 10 is average Intelligence, an orcs get -2 to Intelligence, it means their average is 8)

So it appears that an orc on average will have 20% less brain power than a human, meaning they probably have 1080 CCs of brain capacity.

If you use the Intelligence score as a measure of IQ for the character (multiply score by 10, add result of 1d10 where 10 counts as 0 to determine IQ), it appears an orc on average would have 80-89 IQ.

With that type of average for intelligence, this being the top of the bell curve, an orc society is full of dull-minded individuals.

With a -2 to Intelligence that means their base score starts off at a 6 before being raised.

An orc with 7 Intelligence would have have some sort of borderline deficiency, while an orc with 6 Intelligence would be classified as retarded.

So with this reason, I feel orcs are more "evil" because they are still more primal in nature.

They have not evolved or developed a brain big enough for complex understanding (aside from an elite few), and it's easier for them to accomplish tasks through might (since they have genes that promote body growth) than it would be for them to figure it out.

In this sense, the orcs appear evil, when in fact they are less evolved as a species, and find an easier time raiding, pillaging, raping, murdering, etc...

P.S.

Their low IQs make them good for following orders and being general laborers.

Though complex tasks that require too much thought may anger them, causing the orcs to lash out in anger and destruction.

Um... Do you think mentally disabled people are prone to evil?

Do you think small nonhuman animals are prone to evil?

Do you think large nonhuman animals are more intelligent than humans? In particular, do you think sperm whales (8000 cc brain) have an average Int score of 61?

No? Then this whole line of logic may be a nonstarter.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Slit518]

Um... Do you think mentally disabled people are prone to evil?

Touche.

Orcs are a different kind of mental degradation though. They aren't human, just like Neanderthals weren't human. Not understanding something, or knowing how to work something can be frustrating. Frustration can lead to anger. And we all know where anger leads. And mental disabilities come in many shapes and sizes (just like orcs). The difference between modern day mentally disabled people and orcs, is that orcs must fend for themselves as a society, where as care takers usually take care of the mentally disabled, and they have people to teach them right & wrong.

Do you think small nonhuman animals are prone to evil?

Some are, and some aren't. Not evil by design, but evil by nature. Ever see a cat? They toy with their prey. In fact, those little bastards can be quite evil to animals smaller than them, and not even eat them half the time.

Do you think large nonhuman animals are more intelligent than humans? In particular, do you think sperm whales (8000 cc brain) have an average Int score of 61?

Touche part 2.

While this is true, we also must look at size comparison of brain to body ratio. Dolphins have a larger brain than we or whales do when it comes to brain to body ratio. Dolphins and wales are smart creatures as well, they remember, they form social groups, they have a language, they can even do things we can not, such as use sonar to see things, as well as through things, and even gauge the health status of a creature. I would say what limit's them is a few things, 1) they live in water, 2) they have no opposable digits, 3) they lack technology.


Conclusion:

All-in-all, as I said before, all orcs are not evil, but they are prone to it for the several reasons I've listed. And just like various species of creatures on the planet, they adapt & evolve in their own way. Their brain might also be somewhere in-between simple & complex, with humans being complex, and more instinctive animals being simple. And it's this combination of fending for one's self, with a less understanding of the world around them, building anxiety, frustration, anger, hate, which will lead them to a life of crime, which in turn other societies will see as evil.

That said, if Orcs didn't want to be killed, then they shouldn't be made out of Experience Points.

That made me chuckle a bit.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Orcs are a different kind of mental degradation though. They aren't human, just like Neanderthals weren't human.

Fun fact: Neanderthals had larger brains than modern humans.

Some are, and some aren't. Not evil by design, but evil by nature. Ever see a cat? They toy with their prey. In fact, those little bastards can be quite evil to animals smaller than them, and not even eat them half the time.

But as you acknowledge, not all animals of catlike intelligence behave the way cats do. You can't explain the cat's behavior by citing its intelligence; you have to introduce this new variable "nature" which stands independent of intelligence. This really ought to be a warning sign for you that your hypothesis about intelligence and behavior is a poor one.