D&D 5E So Was That Z Fellow right?

[Parmandur]

Just because you want to act like 25% to group DPR isn't significant and that it doesn't change anything doesn't make it so.

There's significant, and then there is significant. Does it make a difference, sure. So the DM adjusts accordingly: have the party face foes where the Fighter needs to make his weak saves, throw more enemies in, use spell-casting effectively, all within DM control. 5E is not a fine-tuned M-16 with precision-machined parts which requires constant maintenance: it's a mostly wooden AK-47 which will keep chugging along.

Personally, if I saw a player trying to do this, the character wouldn't make it to level 10 alive without some amazing luck and footwork. If a player will metagame, so can the DM.

 

[FrogReaver]

There's significant, and then there is significant. Does it make a difference, sure. So the DM adjusts accordingly: have the party face foes where the Fighter needs to make his weak saves, throw more enemies in, use spell-casting effectively, all within DM control. 5E is not a fine-tuned M-16 with precision-machined parts which requires constant maintenance: it's a mostly wooden AK-47 which will keep chugging along.

Personally, if I saw a player trying to do this, the character wouldn't make it to level 10 alive without some amazing luck and footwork. If a player will metagame, so can the DM.

A DM actively metagaming to stop 1 players build is not cool. All is well and good if you throw him an occasional challenge and monkey wrench, yet it should never be that he made a strong character, therefore you throw him an abnormally high number of enemies/encounters that will challenge and monkey wrench his character (at least in comparison to the other characters).

 

[Parmandur]

A DM actively metagaming to stop 1 players build is not cool. All is well and good if you throw him an occasional challenge and monkey wrench, yet it should never be that he made a strong character, therefore you throw him an abnormally high number of enemies/encounters that will challenge and monkey wrench his character (at least in comparison to the other characters).

*shrug* I really so no problem with it: turnaround is fair play. I also only ever game with friends and family, so gunning to kill a cheesball PC isn't a biggie.

 

[FrogReaver]

*shrug* I really so no problem with it: turnaround is fair play. I also only ever game with friends and family, so gunning to kill a cheesball PC isn't a biggie.

It's not turnaround when you control literally everything about the world and arbitrarily decide to make their PC suffer because they are doing what you have been arguing for pages now is an insignificant amount of extra damage....

I think that illustrates my case pretty well.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Hussar, how much more damage would a character need to do than other characters for you to consider it OP or Broken? Can you give me a number or percentage?

 

[Parmandur]

It's not turnaround when you control literally everything about the world and arbitrarily decide to make their PC suffer because they are doing what you have been arguing for pages now is an insignificant amount of extra damage....

I think that illustrates my case pretty well.

Different DMs could handle it different ways: it makes a difference, it just isn't "overpowered."

I'd gun for the PC to make an example on principle, not because it "breaks" the game: no min-max cheese at my table, thanks. You cheese the game, game cheeses you.

 

[FrogReaver]

Different Dams could handle it different ways: it makes a difference, it just isn't "overpowered."

I'd gun for the PC to make an example on principle, not because it "breaks" the game: no min-max cheese at my table, thanks. You cheese the game, game cheeses you.

Where is the cheese?

 

[pemerton]

If you knock your opponents prone you have advantage which increases your chance to hit which increases damage significantly. It's a lot more than just the +2 damage from duelist.

It's very situational of course, just like GWM. If you have a wolf totem barbarian ally for example, you're already getting advantage on your melee attacks.

Sure. I was just responding to one very small point - someone upthread posted that Duelist adds +2 per attack, and I was saying that you have to adjust that for the likelihood of hitting. (Part of the context being that discussions about the affect of GWM/SS on damage are always about DPA/DPR, not damage per hit, because the changed likelihood of hitting when using those feats is one of the fundamental aspects of the analysis.)

It's a small point, and I'm a bit surprised it's blown up in this way!

 

[pemerton]

I care about the group as a DM, not any one PC. So, if my group is going through about 100 hp/round and would go to 125/round using your build, what impact is that going to have?

Just because you want to act like 25% to group DPR isn't significant and that it doesn't change anything doesn't make it so.

<snip>

The 125 DPR group will have much higher chances of finishing it on round 1 or 2. It will almost be guaranteed to finish the fight by round 3 while your group has a decent chance for the fight to continue on.

The point is there is a very good chance to finish the whole fight a round before your party, saving all the damage and effects etc that such entails. Over the course of an adventuring day all those extra combat rounds will add up. Further, within a combat, every foe my group dispatches a round earlier than yours means a less enemy turn and potentially less future enemy turns. Every foe my team dispatches faster means the next foe can be attacked sooner and dispatched ever faster etc.

From my point of view (as a GM), I would share Hussar's lack of concern about the effect this has on overall party output. I'm sure that my 4e group is more effective than some groups, and less effective than others - I just play the game as it comes.

My concern would be about intraparty balance. So if the feat-using fighter is the only weapon-based damage dealer in the party it may not be a big deal, but I would get worried about overshadowing issues.

 

[Parmandur]

Where is the cheese?

...really?

Strictly speaking, it wouldn't come to that, since I don't allow feats: this whole line of conversation does make me glad they aren't a core rule, even if they do unfortunately take up real estate in the book.