D&D 5E Seek opinion on this Sorcerer change

[ScuroNotte]

I was wondering what others thought of these changes to the Sorcerer


1. Use Spell Points instead of spell slots.
At level 19, can create an additional 6th level spell slot.
At level 20 create an additional 7th level spell slot

2. Sorcery Points can ONLY be used to create metamagic and abilities

3. You can NOT create Sorcery Points from spell slots/spell points. The Sorcery Points are a fixed number based on your level as in the PHB

4. Regain all expended Sorcery Points after a short or long rest. Since you are given a fixed number as a Monk's Ki points, I thought it would be acceptable to treat it the same way.

 

[ClaytonCross]

1. means that sorcerers have more higher level spell slots at a whim. They can do it already but it takes time to convert and their is a loss in points. Casting strait from points means that font of magic is not required so sorcerers could start with 10 level 5 slots for example but switch so lower slots easily. That also becomes more complicated at level 11 since they magic font limits conversion to level 5 slots. If your allowing higher level slots and using the same pool then you end up creating higher costs that don't exist for those spell slots but in order to prevent 9th level spell over flow you make them so expensive that using high level spells basically strips sorcerers of meta magic's and lower level spells slots or you make them cheep enough not to burn all there sorcery points and lower level spells slots then they just cast 4 level 9 spells and destroy everything. --- Broken

2. So no font of magic and unless they picked twinned or something with high cost then they never use all their points resulting in a large amount of wasted points at higher levels and a bit of nerf... and why? Not much of an effect at lower levels.

3. Again not font of magic, basically the same as 2 the result is again waste of sorcery points and nerfing the class at higher levels, will not matter much at lower levels.

4. This is massively broken if you can still make spell slots and if you can't then you will at higher levels just always be able to use sorcery points and meta magic. It would be the same effect of making meta magic static abilities with the exception of Twinned spell which is the only one that has a cost higher than 1 or 3(heightened spell). Twined being twice the spell level used, so just limit it to once per short rest and make the others automatic and remove spell slot creation.

 

[ScuroNotte]

1. means that sorcerers have more higher level spell slots at a whim. They can do it already but it takes time to convert and their is a loss in points. Casting strait from points means that font of magic is not required so sorcerers could start with 10 level 5 slots for example but switch so lower slots easily. That also becomes more complicated at level 11 since they magic font limits conversion to level 5 slots. If your allowing higher level slots and using the same pool then you end up creating higher costs that don't exist for those spell slots but in order to prevent 9th level spell over flow you make them so expensive that using high level spells basically strips sorcerers of meta magic's and lower level spells slots or you make them cheep enough not to burn all there sorcery points and lower level spells slots then they just cast 4 level 9 spells and destroy everything. --- Broken

You are mistaken in your understanding in spell points. Refer to page 288-289 in DMG
They can only create 1 spell slot for levels 6, 7, 8, 9 when they reach the proper level.

That is why I added the ability to create 1 additional 6th level slot at 19th level and 1 additional 7th level spell slot at 20th level. To differentiate them from other casters who may opt to use spell spoints.

2. So no font of magic and unless they picked twinned or something with high cost then they never use all their points resulting in a large amount of wasted points at higher levels and a bit of nerf... and why? Not much of an effect at lower levels.

Currently, at higher levels you regain sorcery points after a long rest only. You need to convert spell slots to create more sorcery points, depleting the spell sots and the number of spells you can cast.

By this method, at higher levels you could use metamagic more frequently during a combat. And with about 4 combats between short rests, you are not always going to have wasted sorcery points. I have played it already at levels 10 and 11 so far and like it better.

3. Again not font of magic, basically the same as 2 the result is again waste of sorcery points and nerfing the class at higher levels, will not matter much at lower levels.

You are regaining all expended Sorcery Points after a short rest. Again allowing you to use them in combat more without expending spell slots.

Economics 101 Supply and Demand. Limited supply of Sorcery Points but huge demand.

Font of Magic sounds good, but it forces a Sorcerers to use Sorcery Points to use Metamagic, replenish spell slots, and use special abilities. That is a lot of demand for a limited pool of points. By removing the ability to create spell slots and limiting its use to metamagic and special abilities only in combination with regaining them after a short rest lessens the demand.

4. This is massively broken if you can still make spell slots and if you can't then you will at higher levels just always be able to use sorcery points and meta magic. It would be the same effect of making meta magic static abilities with the exception of Twinned spell which is the only one that has a cost higher than 1 or 3(heightened spell). Twined being twice the spell level used, so just limit it to once per short rest and make the others automatic and remove spell slot creation.

You cannnot create spell slots with what I am currently suggesting.
(If allowed to create spell slots, then you are able to recover used spell slots uncontrollably, better than a Wizard and land Druid. Better if only for metamagic and special abilities.)

Again to previous point as currently written in PHB, Sorcery Points is in high demand: Metamagic, Abilities, and spell slot creation. To meet that demand, you have to keep converting spell slots to create sorcery points to meet demand. Not practical.

Then the Monk must be broken since they regain all Ki after a short rest. At low levels, the Monk can use Ki only a couple of times then must wait after a rest. The PHB Sorcerer must wait for a long rest or use spell slots, thereby limiting him/her to cantrips or use the sorcery points to regain spell slots and being unable to cast metamagic or use special abilities.
Sorcery Points, as Ki, makes this class standout among other classes. Why shackle the Sorcerer?

 

[Gadget]

Seems fairly well thought out. The one addition I would make would be to allow the Sorcerer more meta-magic options earlier. As it stands, you only get two meta-magic options for a good portion of your career, where it seems the goal it to have Sorcerers constantly using them. It is their one unique shtick, after all. This way you might actually see some meta-magic besides twin, quicken, etc.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

That's not a terrible idea. It makes Sorcery Points to fuel only metamagic, rather than metamagic and a form of Arcane recovery. I like it.

My one concern would be that Wizards still pull ahead in amount of casting due to Arcane Recovery, not to mention wizard's can memorize more spells than sorcerers can ever learn. So what do we give the sorcerer to balance against Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, and Signature Spell?

I suppose Sorcery Points and metamagic plus the eventual ability to cast an extra 6th or 7th level spell can effectively equal Arcane Recovery. Adaptive spellcasting versus more spell slots.

But what of Signature Spell and Spell Mastery?

 

[Croesus]

I was wondering what others thought of these changes to the Sorcerer


1. Use Spell Points instead of spell slots.
At level 19, can create an additional 6th level spell slot.
At level 20 create an additional 7th level spell slot

2. Sorcery Points can ONLY be used to create metamagic and abilities

3. You can NOT create Sorcery Points from spell slots/spell points. The Sorcery Points are a fixed number based on your level as in the PHB

4. Regain all expended Sorcery Points after a short or long rest. Since you are given a fixed number as a Monk's Ki points, I thought it would be acceptable to treat it the same way.

My group has been experimenting with using spell points for sorcerers and we really like it. Gives them some innate flexibility and just plain makes them feel different from other casters.

re: 2 and 3. Yeah, we used one spell point pool for simplicity, but it makes it far too easy to apply metamagic to spells. Keeping the pools separate is a good idea, even though that makes it hard for low-level sorcerers to use much metamagic.

re: item 4. We haven't tried this. It might make mid- and upper-level sorcerers too good, but only testing will tell.

Also, I agree with Gadget. Sorcerers need more metamagic options. My group took all the dead levels in the sorcerer matrix and gave them the option to learn one new spell or one new metamagic option at each such level. Gives them a lot more flexibility, but hasn't unbalanced things for us.

 

[ScuroNotte]

Seems fairly well thought out. The one addition I would make would be to allow the Sorcerer more meta-magic options earlier. As it stands, you only get two meta-magic options for a good portion of your career, where it seems the goal it to have Sorcerers constantly using them. It is their one unique shtick, after all. This way you might actually see some meta-magic besides twin, quicken, etc.

What was done at our table was give mimic the Warlock's Invocation table in the PHB and use it for Metamagic. So by level 20 you know 8 metamagics.
We also created some of our own metamagic spells.

 

[ScuroNotte]

That's not a terrible idea. It makes Sorcery Points to fuel only metamagic, rather than metamagic and a form of Arcane recovery. I like it.

My one concern would be that Wizards still pull ahead in amount of casting due to Arcane Recovery, not to mention wizard's can memorize more spells than sorcerers can ever learn. So what do we give the sorcerer to balance against Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, and Signature Spell?

Sorcery Points would fuel Metamagic and any archetype features that require sorcery points.

The other change we made was increase the number of spells known to 22, as the bard. Each level you learn 1 spell. 19th level you know 21, 20th level you know 22 spells. Still less than Wizard and potentially Warlock (depending on what Invocations taken). But now at a respectable level that we do not seem to be 1/3 casters when compared to numbers known to Eldritch knight and Arcane Trickster who use spells to complement their class features while the Sorcerer uses spells as a core class feature. Never understood that.

The Arcane Recovery feature is still something in debate. Going back and forth about creating one. I know Bards do not have this feature. I am currently leaning towards no because with Spell Points, the Sorcerer can forgo low level spells and potentially create 1 9th and 8th level spell, 2 6th level and 7th level spells, and the rest could be 5th level spells. That is an equal trade off, unless spell points are used by other casters, at which point the balance shifts again.

I suppose Sorcery Points and metamagic plus the eventual ability to cast an extra 6th or 7th level spell can effectively equal Arcane Recovery. Adaptive spellcasting versus more spell slots.

The extra 6th and 7th level spells equal to the same number of spells any other full caster knows. Spell Point system only allows the creation of 1 6th and 1 7th level spell slots. I just altered it for the Sorcerer to create an additional slot for those levels so they are in par with the other full casters who use spell slots.

But what of Signature Spell and Spell Mastery?

Regarding Signature Spell and Spell Mastery, my opinion is that the metamagic spells answers that. Yes Wizards can cast certain spells without expending a spell slot, but Sorcerers can do many things with any spells thanks to metamagic

 

[ScuroNotte]

My group has been experimenting with using spell points for sorcerers and we really like it. Gives them some innate flexibility and just plain makes them feel different from other casters.

re: 2 and 3. Yeah, we used one spell point pool for simplicity, but it makes it far too easy to apply metamagic to spells. Keeping the pools separate is a good idea, even though that makes it hard for low-level sorcerers to use much metamagic.

re: item 4. We haven't tried this. It might make mid- and upper-level sorcerers too good, but only testing will tell.

I am surprised WoTC did not just Sorcerers Spell Points to begin with. Definitely gives a different feel to other spell casters.

re: item 4. We haven't tried this. It might make mid- and upper-level sorcerers too good, but only testing will tell.

Haven't play tested it long, but considering it is same feature of the Monk who expends Ki to use special abilities, I don't think it will cause major problems. What would help is if WoTC considered this and put out a play test material to evaluate it at a large scale.

Also, I agree with Gadget. Sorcerers need more metamagic options. My group took all the dead levels in the sorcerer matrix and gave them the option to learn one new spell or one new metamagic option at each such level. Gives them a lot more flexibility, but hasn't unbalanced things for us.

Agree. The limitations in learning metamagics makes most people select the same metamagics most of the time.

As I mentioned in another reply, what was done at our table was mimic the Warlock's Invocation table in the PHB and use it for Metamagic. So by level 20 you know 8 metamagics.
We also created some of our own metamagic spells.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

The other change we made was increase the number of spells known to 22, as the bard. Each level you learn 1 spell. 19th level you know 21, 20th level you know 22 spells. Still less than Wizard and potentially Warlock (depending on what Invocations taken). But now at a respectable level that we do not seem to be 1/3 casters when compared to numbers known to Eldritch knight and Arcane Trickster who use spells to complement their class features while the Sorcerer uses spells as a core class feature. Never understood that.

That's also a decent way to handle that. I tend to provide a themed spell list like domain spells, providing 2 additional spells for spell levels 1 through 5. I find that's a decent way to provide sorcerers with relevant spells while giving them flexibility to branch outside their bloodline. I think either option is a good way to handle that.

The Arcane Recovery feature is still something in debate. Going back and forth about creating one. I know Bards do not have this feature. I am currently leaning towards no because with Spell Points, the Sorcerer can forgo low level spells and potentially create 1 9th and 8th level spell, 2 6th level and 7th level spells, and the rest could be 5th level spells. That is an equal trade off, unless spell points are used by other casters, at which point the balance shifts again.

That may help higher level sorcerers. But Bards, in addition to being full casters with their archetype abilities and bardic inspiration also get better armor and weapon proficiencies and a higher hit die. Besides, classically in 3rd edition the balance between wizards and sorcerers was that wizards got fewer spell slots but had more spells to choose from, whereas sorcerers were more limited in their spell selection, but could cast more often and spontaneously. Now that all casters are spontaneous casters, wizards cast more spells and have more spells to choose from, and sorcerers get metamagic? Metamagic is good, but it doesn't quite go far enough IMO. Especially since more metamagic options only allow you to apply a single metamagic option at a time. Now, with your version where sorcerers get more spells known, it helps the balance a bit at those lower levels. But I feel like more could be done.

The extra 6th and 7th level spells equal to the same number of spells any other full caster knows. Spell Point system only allows the creation of 1 6th and 1 7th level spell slots. I just altered it for the Sorcerer to create an additional slot for those levels so they are in par with the other full casters who use spell slots.

Regarding Signature Spell and Spell Mastery, my opinion is that the metamagic spells answers that. Yes Wizards can cast certain spells without expending a spell slot, but Sorcerers can do many things with any spells thanks to metamagic

So here's an interesting thing to consider. At level 20, over a short rest a wizard can recover a total of 10 spell slots (likely two 5th level spell slots). If using flexible casting to create spell slots, a 20th level sorcerer can create two 5th level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot. Sorcerers get a bit more out of the deal since this pool is split between creating spell slots and metamagic. Also, the spell conversion to create spell slots with flexible casting is the exact same as what is used for the spell point variant in the DMG.

Lets assume both wizards and sorcerers were using the spell point system. By level 20, both would get 133 spell points. Based on this system, a wizard using Arcane Recovery would recover 14 spell points. So in an adventuring day, a Wizard gets a total of 147 spell points to use on spells. They only have to use that resource for spells.

Now what if we said that sorcerers just skip all that. Their power comes in metamagic AND flexibility of spell slots. They get a single resource of Spell Points, and it increases by 20 (1 per level). Unlike other classes using spell points, they gain the ability to create a max of two 6th level spell slots, two 7th level spell slots, and one of each for 8th and 9th. At this point, I don't know that sorcerers need an equivalent to spell master or signature spell. They have a ton of spell points to give them access to more high level spell slots, and flexibility to use metamagic when it benefits. As all casters are spontaneous casters, the sorcerer returns to the flexibility and raw power that it represented in previous editions. If your sorcerer wants to eschew metamagic and just cast continuous spells, they can bring the fire power. If they need to adapt their magic, they can use the metamagic options.

Now this makes Sorcerous Restoration a bit more worthwhile. Though I might change it to this:

Sorcerous Restoration
At 20th level, you regain a number of spell points equal to twice your Charisma modifier whenever you finish a short rest. This cannot bring you above your normal maximum spell point total.

Mind you I am not sure if any of this would be balanced and have not thoroughly thought through the potential uses/abuses. But it is interesting to consider. Also, important to note that in my Homebrew, the Signature Spell ability works more like Spell Mastery, allowing two 3rd level spells to be cast at their lowest spell level without consuming a spell slot at will.