D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Krachek]

Really, you guys amaze me. With your ability to misread arguments in order to create quests you can insta-win, I mean. (Welcome to the interwebs, Capn, I guess)

In no particular order...

"I don't want magic shoppes" - congrats, nobody was trying to force them into your game. As long as you don't actively want to deny others their official-but-optional magic shoppe support, we have no beef.

"[insert edition here] does / does not feature magic shoppes" - irrelevant. If Gamer Bob WANTS to feature them, a game that supports this is better than a game that does not. Do not contest this unless you're willing to be sorted into "I actively want your play style to be boycotted" category!

"[insert campaign world here] does / does not feature magic shoppes" - irrelevant. The only argument against Gamer Sue inserting magic shoppes into her Conan or My Little Pony world is equivalent to "you're playing the game badwrongfun". Don't do that.

"5th edition already supports magic item prices" - I call BS. Either you haven't the foggiest clue, or you are deliberately spreading FUD. Rarity based pricing is useless if your aim is to allow players to convert gold into magic item power. A fundamental property is that more powerful items cost more gold. If you don't agree to this, you're arguing in bad faith, since the subject is the functional magic shoppes *I* want, and not the broken shoppes *you* want me to have - especially if you have no intention of featuring any shoppes yourself.

Now:
1) D&D used to support magic shoppes (specifically, utility-based pricing and creation). Fact. For close to twenty years of active support too, if you count Pathfinder as a 3rd edition successor.
2) Many gamers loved this aspect of D&D and found it integral to the experience, as well as providing a superb answer to the otherwise unanswered question "but what should we do with all the gold if we don't want any downtime?"
3) The biggest deficiency in 5th edition's official legacy support is arguably its lack of utility-based magic prices

Therefore. You don't have to like it or buy it, and nobody will come to your house and make it "core", but if you want to deny me my official 3E-style magic item pricing and creation framework, please consult the following image.

View attachment 93514

A so proud statement allow me some questions.
Do you have made, as dm, any changes to your game concerning this matter?
Or more precisely do you use any sane magic item price list?

 

[Nevvur]

So, yeah, I do hope they never release any "official but optional" magic shop rules. Or even "unofficial" if it has the WotC logo on it. (Or Warlords.) Sorry. Nuthin' personal.

Yep. I wrote almost that exact thing 10 pages ago.

Though I don't see a lot of 5e people 'clamoring for magic shops.' If you look at the first few pages, almost everyone was opposed to including magic shops in their games! Then a few people on the other side of the aisle got really loud claiming that WotC owes them these rules, and that has dominated the last 15 or so pages.

What entitled crap.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Here's someone who has thought a bit about the topic...

http://www.runagame.net/2017/07/magic-item-shops.html

I'm sure the article is all well and good, since it makes sense that JRPGs influenced D&D, but it shows a lack of awareness of literature as H.G Wells was doing the Magic Shop thing, with a book called "The Magic Shop" back in 1903. Early references of selling magic items in shops go back to Arabian Nights. (1706) with the original from the Arabian Golden Age.

I'm sure there's more references that I'm not aware of that go further back.

As to my own take on magic shops, it really depends on whether or not it makes sense in the economy I'm running. If there's a local sort of "Jedi Order of Mages" with lots of mages in training and such, then it's pretty clear that a magic shop should be around. On the other hand, if I'm running a game with strict economic alignment to the middle ages with magic items being treated like relics or artifacts, then there won't be any.

Magic shops aren't evil, they're just not needed until they are.
KB

 

[MechaPilot]

Magic items feel special again.

Depends on the item. +X items still don't feel special.

 

[Krachek]

I think a magic shop can’t exist. The reasons are simple.
If others adventurers are at least as greedy as pc,
A magic shop would be perpetually robbed and have nothing to sell,
or forced to bankrupt because its defense expense will be too high!

Of course this reasoning can be only applied to a magic shop that use a realistic and sane magic item price list. A magic shop in a more fantasist setting would certainly survive and make profit.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Depends on the item. +X items still don't feel special.

No, but it's still really exciting when you get that first +1 weapon. And then it's exciting when you get that +2 weapon. Etc.

For me, that excitement is eroded (badly) if I can just save up Xk gold and buy it. Even if I don't do that, knowing I can makes it less rewarding. Made worse if everybody else at the table has already done so.

(Yeah yeah, I know...incoming patronization/condescension about "comparing myself to other players", as if the only possible reason for my point of view is DPR inferiority complex. Ask a powergamer, get a powergamer perspective, I suppose. Not that I'm actually asking...)

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yep. I wrote almost that exact thing 10 pages ago.

Though I don't see a lot of 5e people 'clamoring for magic shops.' If you look at the first few pages, almost everyone was opposed to including magic shops in their games! Then a few people on the other side of the aisle got really loud claiming that WotC owes them these rules, and that has dominated the last 15 or so pages.

What entitled crap.

We aren't entirely on the same side of the aisle. I don't like being able to purchase magic items, but I also don't think it's "entitled crap" to want WotC to support one's preferred playstyle, and then to vent frustration about not having it. I don't find their argument compelling, but I am sympathetic to their desire.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Now:
1) D&D used to support magic shoppes (specifically, utility-based pricing and creation). Fact. For close to twenty years of active support too, if you count Pathfinder as a 3rd edition successor.
2) Many gamers loved this aspect of D&D and found it integral to the experience, as well as providing a superb answer to the otherwise unanswered question "but what should we do with all the gold if we don't want any downtime?"
3) The biggest deficiency in 5th edition's official legacy support is arguably its lack of utility-based magic prices
/snip

I'm not sure that's accurate though. Let's look at these in order:

1. Utility based pricing and creation - that's never actually been true. It might have been the idea, but, 3e was very bad at it. If we define utility as "something that is going to see the most use at the table" then plussed weapons should be the absolutely most expensive items out there. Nothing is more utilitarian than a +1 weapon. Nothing in the game will see as much use. The only thing that might come close are the plussed stat items, which again, should be fantastically expensive if we are going by utility.

But the items weren't priced like that. They were priced based on a presumed level where your character should have items of this power level. Thus the Wealth by Level tables. In earlier editions, a 5th level fighter would have a +1 sword, so, a +1 sword was priced such that a 5th level 3e fighter could afford it.

The pricing was never based on utility though. That's why we had the Big 6 magic items that overshadowed everything else you could pick up. They were cheap and unbelievably utilitarian.

2. Many gamers found it integral? I'm not so sure. Some, ok. No worries. How many? Well considering that magic item buying isn't much of a thing in 5e and wasn't for much of the game's history, I'm not really sure that appeals to popularity are really going to win you any points.

3. Biggest deficiency in legacy support? Seriously? Buying magic items and the game being based around that only appears in 3e. My favorite character to play - a summoner wizard, has more legacy than that. Never minding psionics. I think you might be overplaying your hand just a bit here.

 

[MechaPilot]

No, but it's still really exciting when you get that first +1 weapon. And then it's exciting when you get that +2 weapon. Etc.

For me, that excitement is eroded (badly) if I can just save up Xk gold and buy it. Even if I don't do that, knowing I can makes it less rewarding. Made worse if everybody else at the table has already done so.

(Yeah yeah, I know...incoming patronization/condescension about "comparing myself to other players", as if the only possible reason for my point of view is DPR inferiority complex. Ask a powergamer, get a powergamer perspective, I suppose. Not that I'm actually asking...)

Not to split hairs, but there is a difference between an item feeling special and being excited you have a more powerful magic item. What you appeared to describe is the latter. However, most +X items are given remarkably little character. Apart from simply being inherently better from a mechanical perspective, there is generally little or nothing given about them that makes them feel special or unique. And yes, I realize this is the DM's job, as the world-builder. However, even in published adventures that assume certain settings and locales with certain histories this ball is usually dropped.

 

[ad_hoc]

Depends on the item. +X items still don't feel special.

They do at our table.

It really depends on how many magic items the party has.

Sure, the 4th +1 weapon doesn't feel special. But when the party might not even come across a +1 weapon, finding one is memorable.